.lava
Veteran Member
so if Iraqis were Christians for example, there would still be war and entire world would again sit down and watch...i think not
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Muhammed on South Park
- Thread starter Draka
- Start date
so if Iraqis were Christians for example, there would still be war and entire world would again sit down and watch...i think not
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.lava
Veteran Member
008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
009.123
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
You know? If you're looking for justification, I think it's pretty hard to miss. Anyway, I think we've gone off topic a bit.
hi again
OK, read this;
005.032YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
as you may assume reason why i share this is that part says "whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind"
verses you share are to be followed in war. but we can't follow this verse i share during war, can we? if some other nation or group of people were killing my family, my friends...etc i could not come up and say "killing one is equal killing entire humanity". people have to defend their nations, their people
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Commoner
Headache
That's too easy, Lava. You can simply assert that you are at war (with "the West" or with unbelievers who are trying to take away your rights) and you can justify anything.
.lava
Veteran Member
yes, i get that. that's the problem. some Muslims believe they are at war with "the West". though if you kill someone who has no weapon pointing at you in your own land, you can't really say you did it because there was a war between. besides, killing civilians, ordinary people is not war, it is murderer. but note that i am aware of what you are saying and i agree
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Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
We mock Islam because that is what we do. We also mock christianity. We name sports teams after Native Americans and use there sacred objects in a cartoonish manor. The people in charge of the media don't edit insults. It's the price we pay for free speech. Everyone feels insulted in some way.
I do not believe that Americans go out of there way to kill muslims. It's the oil in the middle east that we need. Islam sits were there is oil. Thats the problem. We don't dislike muslims any more then African Christians. We just don't treat either group the same as Europeans. America can not support our life style with out oil. If you did not have oil we would ignore the middle east the way we don't care about Africa.
Commoner
Headache
What about Georgia?
And it's not like the only conflict in the Middle East happened between America and Iraq. Aren't you disregarding all the conflicts between countries with predominantly Muslim populations? What about when Iraq invaded Iran?
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Commoner
Headache
Well, then we agree. But doesn't that make scripture pretty useless?
.lava
Veteran Member
not really. you can't practice what should be practiced in time of peace while there's war. that's all and that's perfectly simple
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Commoner
Headache
No, I didn't mean it in that sense.
I meant - if it can be used by each individual to simply confirm what they already believe and can then be used as a divine justification - where normally arguments would be required, does that not render the whole idea of inerrancy and divine inspiration moot?
Scripture, unfortunately, carries with it the assertion of divine inspiration. It is supposed to be the word of god, the ultimate truth, the end-all, be-all guide to life, the universe and everything. As such, it can be used in place of arguments and discussion and while "understanding" might be desired and preferred, it is not required in order for it to be used as justification. This is in contrast to other, not (supposedly) divinely inspired works, whence no justification can come without understandable reasons.
If god says gays are sinners, then gays are sinners. No actual reasons are required and if they are given, they need not be understood in terms of how we understand other things around us. If unbelievers are to burn in hell for all eternity, than that is such and it needs not be questioned. Why need unbelievers burn in hell - well, pick your religion - not accepting Jesus as their personal savior, not bowing down to Allah, whatever. These aren't reasons, they are excuses, without substance, without arguments.
Instead of debating arguments, people quibble over what scripture "actually" says, what god "actually" meant to say when he/she/it wrote it or inspired its writing. There is something seriously perverted in this kind of thinking.
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Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
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In other words, Matt and Trey didn't take down the episode. Comedy Central did.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
The Nazis were Christian, christians find reasons to kill eachother all the time too.
jmvizanko
Uber Tool
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions" - Thomas Jefferson
The good that can come from this is that we have the duty to undermine the values of people that do not respect the freedom of other cultures. The Islamic world deserves to be ridiculed for believing they have the right to respond to free speech with violence. They can keep their totalitarian and freedom oppressing culture to themselves and their countries.
By that token you yourself might deserve to be ridiculed for asserting that all Muslims believe the same things -- i.e. they have a right to respond to free speech with violence.
Welcome to the Forum by the way.
jmvizanko
Uber Tool
I dont believe they all believe the same things, and I am only concerned with the ones that do.
.lava
Veteran Member
i am unsure if Nazis are good example here. if it really is, then who's in the place of Nazis? Iraqis or American? besides, entire Europe did fight against them because they suffered from them. seems Ira did not offer suffering to Western enough
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.lava
Veteran Member
oh let me be clear for you. i don't care for what you do. you or your words can't reach my values. they are not designed to be weak as human. you may play your own game of undermining this or that and i would not care. i would not care if you still remain in the building as you do so. it is basically your own game to play and i am not going to be your "game buddie"
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.lava
Veteran Member
something wrong with that kind of "thinking"? i believe you are being nice cos it is not thinking at all. that's not how we live or experience religion. we do ask questions. we have to. majority would assume faith is blind. i think not. while you still have your intellect, following something else blindly is not even humane. intellect is a tool for us and it has to be used. there are somethings beyond my intellect, for sure. there i would hold on to my faith. but what we are talking about is not really beyond human mind
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.lava
Veteran Member
jmvizanko
Uber Tool
I am not playing any "game." I am merely suggesting that no ideas, in a world where differing ideas lead to conflict, sometimes violent, should be exempt from criticism. I also think that useful criticism can take the form of ridicule. I dont care what your values are and I will completely respect them as long as you keep them to yourself and anybody else that consents to sharing them.
.lava
Veteran Member
we have a saying here. it is a special expression, something like this....."saying the last thing first". some people tend to say things that should be the last thing to say to somebody. like when there's nothing left to say but that. because you did your best, you expressed yourself and now it is over and at last you say what brings the dead line. so we say things that "ends" conversation in the begining. but i don't really feel like explaining why i am saying this.
you don't play game? let me explain. you say "we have the duty to undermine the values of people..." a duty. well, good luck with that. from where i stand it appears your duty somehow includes "me" and i am saying it is your own game to play and i am not willing to be your game buddie. in this case your game buddie can only be a guy who start man hunt, not someone like me. you can't reach my values because you can't undermine humanity within me. so you are on your own. your duty, your game and your responsibility
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