Multiculturalism vs. Cultural Appropriation - say what??

[columbus]

This is a side issue, but in all of this Keziah Daum, the teen who wore the dress, has taken a beating.

Really?
A white chick named Keziah?

So, her parents were big on cultural appropriation? That explains a lot.
/snark


Tom

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Personally, I wouldn't blame the media. It is up to the individual to ensure validity of the story. To blame the media is to suggest we have little to no responsibility in this whole process of extracting truth or logic.

People consume, and thereby propagate through supply and demand, media (written by other people) which is extremely reductive and not an accurate representation of the issue. I believe people are responsible for the media.But also it creates vicious cycles of echo chambers that are way too narrow in scope.
Such as:
Cultural appropriation means never ever use an aspect of another culture. *Groan*
Or
Cultural appropriation is racism against those poor white victims of minority's victimhood. *Grooaaan.*

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You are getting perilously close to sounding reasonable about this. Have you no shame?

Seriously though, I think you make an important point and this "dumbing down" of the concept(s) is a very real part of the problem. It's not so much a case of the academic articles being overtly problematic, if one can even wade through them due to the often unnecessarily dense verbiage, but rather, how the ideas move downstream and are interpreted by many students and society in general. I think both Intersectionality and gender studies suffer from similar problems in that the excessively complex jargon is so easily misunderstood... and not just by the general public.

As a medical industry technitian married to a lit major (whose day job is in IT) and who calls herself a irreligious agnostic atheist apatheist (and occasionally throws around words like 'theological noncognitivism') I have to admit I've a fondness for jargon. It might make certain concepts seem overwhelming or inaccessible but for me, once you learn the terms it lets you convey a lot of information with much less effort.

There's still room for flexibility of definitions, there has to be for language to be dynamic and especially in new fields. But I rather like that exploration.

 

[David1967]

I was thinking of food to. Should I begin referring to my endless curry dishes as being Indian inspired Canadian cuisine? It makes it sound like I mix Indian curry with maple syrup and beer.... hmmm.... I might just try that.... mmmmm.

Ya gotta keep up with the PC terminology or face the wrath of the ,,the,,Heck, I don't know what to call them. PC police?

 

[Sunstone]

I think an issue such as this one has so many aspects to it, so many facets, and it is so hard to see the whole of it at once, that much comes down to which aspect you are most focused on. I'm finding it's hard to boil down, simplify, without losing too much nuance.

 

[Frater Sisyphus]

Cultural Appropriation doesn't exist, period.

 

[Sunstone]

Cultural Appropriation doesn't exist, period.

What's your reasoning?

 

[Frater Sisyphus]

What's your reasoning?

If it did (hypothetically speaking), it is at the core of every single civilization that has had contact with other civilizations throughout all of history. You can't have much of a culture if only your own ideas are passing through. We live in the 21st century, in the age of the internet now nonetheless - nobody "owns" their culture. Half the world is Americanized now anyway and everyone steals from everyone else. To consider another culture automatically 'fragile' on the basis of that, is seeing them as inferior - which I highly disagree with. And so on...

 

[Orbit]

It's a matter of power, commodification, and respect. When a culturally powerful group uses a sacred or meaningful cultural object from another group in a way that disrespects, cheapens, commodifies, or transforms it into a symbol of "the exotic other" that's appropriation. Think of the white girl wearing a Native American eagle feather headdress (which is a sacred object) to a rock concert. That's cultural appropriation. To the extent that the Chinese dress has a special meaning for the Chinese and that was commodified or made into a novelty for the thoughtless powerful group (whites), then it's appropriation. It's about power imbalance and the ability to define your own culture. There are those who say the definition of what is appropriation given by the minority group being offended is always the correct one by definition. I think the way to proceed is to ask Chinese people if THEY are offended and if they could explain why it is offensive. Then everybody learns something.

 

[Sunstone]

I think the way to proceed is to ask Chinese people if THEY are offended and if they could explain why it is offensive. Then everybody learns something.

The New York Times did just that. Asked people in China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong what they thought, along with searching Chinese social media for comments on the event in question. There was little or no upset, anger, or criticism of the girl for wearing the dress. People spoke of being proud or pleased that she did. There was also some confusion over why it was an issue and how it was an issue.

At least one commentator has pointed out that this appears to be an issue for Chinese-Americans, but not for Chinese.

 

[Orbit]

The New York Times did just that. Asked people in China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong what they thought, along with searching Chinese social media for comments on the event in question. There was little or no upset, anger, or criticism of the girl for wearing the dress. People spoke of being proud or pleased that she did. There was also some confusion over why it was an issue and how it was an issue.

At least one commentator has pointed out that this appears to be an issue for Chinese-Americans, but not for Chinese.

That's actually really interesting. I wonder if the Chinese Americans, because they are removed (relatively) from the homeland, see the clothes as important markers of their own ethnic identity in the US.

 

[Devaki]

Okay, as a white chick who is a practising Hindu and eats more curry than some of the Indians I know, here are my two cents:

Cultural appropriation is only a problem if it is done in a disrespectful completely out of context manner and that imho is when it becomes cultural appropriation, rather than appreciation.
So like wearing a saree as a Halloween costume vs. wearing one to temple.
But lines are often difficult to draw.
Furthermore I think that some random high school chick is not really the right person to direct one's anger towards. Structural oppression of minorities is the real problem.
Just because she isn't Chinese doesn't mean she is particularly representative of any oppressive majority, or has a lot of "privilege". She could be equally marginalized for other reasons .... I think it's problematic when every single member of a group is seen as "the oppressor". That is in itself sort of....racist.
Also from my experience this is a very Western problem. The people being appropriated usually don't give a darn, or they actually appreciate it. The only people who seem to cry cultural appropriation are 16 to 25 year olds living in the USA and to a lesser extent Western Europe who either have been bullied or are for some other reason uncomfortable with their own heritage and ... get mad because "that white chick can wear it and its cool and when my mum made me wear one to my school's Christmas bake sale they all laughed at me".

So yeah I think cases like this one aren't really a problem, nor should they be.

 

[YmirGF]

That's actually really interesting. I wonder if the Chinese Americans, because they are removed (relatively) from the homeland, see the clothes as important markers of their own ethnic identity in the US.

Which is more than a little weird. I think it is far more likely that many folks are simply acting out some of the more repugnant aspect of thought coming out of the (ironically named) humanities, these days. Who knows this could become the 21st century equivalent of a "communist under every rock" from the McCarthy era.

 

[suncowiam]

People consume, and thereby propagate through supply and demand, media (written by other people) which is extremely reductive and not an accurate representation of the issue. I believe people are responsible for the media.But also it creates vicious cycles of echo chambers that are way too narrow in scope.
Such as:
Cultural appropriation means never ever use an aspect of another culture. *Groan*
Or
Cultural appropriation is racism against those poor white victims of minority's victimhood. *Grooaaan.*

Let's back up a bit before you go down that road of logic so mute all that groaning.

Let me first question your assertion that the media specifically creates these vicious cycles. We can definitely criticize what the media writes about. But is it fair to blame the media for our actions and thoughts? If I told you to hate black people and gave you some reasonable answer, and you actually started doing it... Is that my fault or yours?

Take some responsibility for your own beliefs and actions. Actually take all the responsibility. They're your beliefs and actions. Just because some outlet convinced, persuaded or brainwashed you into those beliefs, it does not mean you are not liable for them.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Let's back up a bit before you go down that road of logic so mute all that groaning.

Let me first question your assertion that the media specifically creates these vicious cycles. We can definitely criticize what the media writes about. But is it fair to blame the media for our actions and thoughts? If I told you to hate black people and gave you some reasonable answer, and you actually started doing it... Is that my fault or yours?

Take some responsibility for your own beliefs and actions. Actually take all the responsibility. They're your beliefs and actions. Just because some outlet convinced, persuaded or brainwashed you into those beliefs, it does not mean you are not liable for them.

I'm not divorcing the people from the people who write or the people who consume media. It's all people. I think the relationship between people and their media can and does feed into aforementioned vicious cycle of extremes and extreme pandering. So I think both media creators and media consumers are responsible for that atmosphere and behavior.

 

[suncowiam]

I'm not divorcing the people from the people who write or the people who consume media. It's all people. I think the relationship between people and their media can and does feed into aforementioned vicious cycle of extremes and extreme pandering. So I think both media creators and media consumers are responsible for that atmosphere and behavior.

I have to think about what you said a bit more.

 

[SomeRandom]

Indian food uses a lot of palm sugar... I think it would work out pretty well!

Only the Westerners, or Gujrati and maybe some Fijians. Southern (my fam) is usually pretty dry and hot. But we also use coconut milk, a variant from our own Fijian background. Northerners use milk, not sure about Easterners.

 

[illykitty]

I don't really agree with the idea of cultural appropriation. To me it seems weird to think that one's culture is one's own ONLY and that no one else can partake in it or appreciate various aspects of it. As it was previously pointed out, so much of our culture today is a result of culture mixing together to form new ones. We build on top of the current one with new things, whether original or a part of another.

How can we grow as people if we isolate ourselves and don't share great ideas, foods and whatever else?

I'm half-Hungarian (so not the "right" kind of white according to some horrible people past and present), and if someone was interested in any part of Hungarian culture, I would be quite happy. I used to be ashamed of it, it made me feel like I was an alien in my own country (Canada) but later on, I found that (most) people actually find it interesting.

But hey, I'm just a white girl, so my opinion according to these people mean nothing... Because all white people are the same.

 

[SomeRandom]

It's a matter of power, commodification, and respect. When a culturally powerful group uses a sacred or meaningful cultural object from another group in a way that disrespects, cheapens, commodifies, or transforms it into a symbol of "the exotic other" that's appropriation. Think of the white girl wearing a Native American eagle feather headdress (which is a sacred object) to a rock concert. That's cultural appropriation. To the extent that the Chinese dress has a special meaning for the Chinese and that was commodified or made into a novelty for the thoughtless powerful group (whites), then it's appropriation. It's about power imbalance and the ability to define your own culture. There are those who say the definition of what is appropriation given by the minority group being offended is always the correct one by definition. I think the way to proceed is to ask Chinese people if THEY are offended and if they could explain why it is offensive. Then everybody learns something.

As someone else pointed out this is mainly an American thing. Even my own experience of being accused of appropriating my own culture happened when I was in America. No one, not even in the West, cares. (Well maybe some parts of Europe by now.) My immigrant ma either doesn't care when a sacred object is used as a mere marketing tool or symbol or she simply rolls her eyes and moves on with her life. Mainly because she is secure in her own identity (and also because Hindus are very intensely passive people.) Yeah the colonial hangover sucks and casts a far reaching dark cloud over all of our heads. But you know if you grow up in certain areas where there is plenty of mixing of people of different backgrounds you find yourself borrowing from everyone without realising. And people seem genuinely happy. We have a hungee with our friends/family and then another day you could be learning a traditional dance from one of your school mates and yet another participating in another school mate's religous festival and so on and so forth.
From an outsider's perspective, as a mixed race Western born weirdo, y'all look insecure as hell.
So they commodify your culture? So what? Mine is every time I wander past a incense shop or massage parlour run by hippie white folk. Eh? Why should I let that affect how I see my own culture? It is not that weak really. And I'm not entirely strong in my own cultural identity since I have to always be two people.
I dunno, America does have a bit of a reputation overseas as a country constantly looking for offence, even before cultural appropriation became buzzwords on the Internet.
Just putting that out there.

 

[Revoltingest]

Cultural Appropriation doesn't exist, period.

I've been wondering the same thing.
It could be largely an internet Poe phenomenon.
Imagine some wag chortling with glee at loud
reactions to his (yes...it would be a he) feigned
taking of offense.