Mathematician
Reason, and reason again
Hmm, Moslim Heaven sounds enjoyable to me. 
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Muslims: 72 Virgins in Paradise?
- Thread starter Djamila
- Start date
Buttercup said:
That's great, but not by repeating the same question when we already answered it, unless you just wants to believe in what you love to hear about specific people (i.e. muslims). That's true, because some people (i hope you are not one of them) just don't like to see some other faiths (i.e. Islam) to look reasonable and in positive way.
Well, in some other faiths, you can ask like this question and they will answer you saying that they believe that ...... bla bla bla, and others will come to disagree with him/her and it's all due their emotions or what their church, temple, etc do teach. Muslims might disagree amongest each other as well but only in few things and it wouldn't be in "aqida" issues, which deal with God, religious doctrine, scriptures, etc but in some few specific issues which doesn't affect the belief system.
Nevertheless, in Islam there is no such thing as guessing, take this from me, if a muslim told you anything just don't buy it till he/she bring for you the proof for what he/she said then examine it by yourself, for there is no self interpretations, doubts and guessing games in Islam. Based on that i speak in here as much as i can, and as you can see, i never said anything about that hadith and i didn't reject it since we began this discussion till i found out about it, that it wasn't "sahih". If it wasn't the case, i would accept anything in Islam if it was true whether people like it or not, as long as i please Allah almighty, i don't care what people say about it.
Sorry because i'm a bit poor in searching hadiths in english because my english is not that good and i'm not that familiar in searching about it in english, but i'll provide the arabic original one and i hope that someone will come up with the english one for it which state the hadith's status in term of validity as the arabic one will state in here that it's weak but not "sahih".
81609 -
أدنى أهل الجنة ، الذي له ثمانون ألف خادم ، واثنتان وسبعون زوجة ، وينصب له قبة من لؤلؤ وزبرجد وياقوت ، كما بين ( الجابية ) إلى ( صنعاء )
الراوي: أبو سعيد الخدري - خلاصة الدرجة: ضعيف - المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: ضعيف الترغيب - الصفحة أو الرقم: 2187
The word in red show that it's status is "weak". You will ask, so why don't you just say it's false or rejected?
Well, there is many types of hadith and this one is weak "daif" and you can read about it in the link and it's number 22.
http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Endless_Bliss_Second_Fascicle/bliss2-6.htm
Yeah i know, so many types of hadith in term of status but this how Muslim scholars treat the scriptures in so much details for everyone. They never omit anythig whatever happen, they just explain and show so everyone can be aware of everything in details even though it happeend before so many years a go.
You are most welcome. Regarding that hadith, it's "sahih".
In general, the scholar said that there is another hadith which show that most of people in heaven are actually, women.
176124 -
إما تفاخروا وإما تذاكروا : الرجال في الجنة أكثر أم النساء ؟ فقال أبو هريرة : أو لم يقل أبو القاسم صلى الله عليه وسلم " إن أول زمرة تدخل الجنة على صورة القمر ليلة البدر . والتي تليها على أضوإ كوكب دري في السماء . لكل امرئ منهم زوجتان اثنتان . يرى مخ سوقهما من وراء اللحم . وما في الجنة أعزب ؟ "
الراوي: محمد - خلاصة الدرجة: صحيح - المحدث: مسلم - المصدر: المسند الصحيح - الصفحة أو الرقم: 2834
Now, the meaning of this hadith (sorry so hard to translate and the brothers and sister might help me), it shows that the companions of prophet Mohammed were mentioning this issue and whether men or women are more in heaven then one of the companions of prophet Mohammed told them that prophet Mohammed once mentioned that the very first people who enter to heaven will be men and each one of them has two wives which means that women are the double as men at least. That was the end of the hadith.
Now you seem confused maybe, isn't it?
Now i'll jump to the conclusion which most of the great scholars of Islam whether they are the early or the later one. They said that they are both, most of the people of hellfire then after that when they are punished in hell for a while and the shafa'a came for them (i hope one of the brothers or sisters will come to explain the shafa'a in english
) , they will enter to heaven and they become most of people in heaven. Therefore, if you are "or became" a muslim, you don't have to worry about such thing. I think this issue is clear right now for you and for everyone else.
Peace and blessing,
TT
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Yes but that is not all they do.Buttercup said:Why would faithful men be given 72 virgins? To clip their toe nails?
It means what it says but Allah knows best. As I said there are way more women then there are men. Let me give you the example there are what 4 billion on the planet. Now some say there are over a billion muslims on the planet. Which many can validate .
but from the statements of Islam towards the end of times women will outnumber men 50 to 1. Look at the case today women do outnumber men. How many out of the whole population of these women are muslim. If the majority of the planet is non muslim and women then off course there are going to be more women in Hellfire then men. And in comparison to the number of women present in the world compared to the believing women who uphold all the rights of Allah and what he has given their husbands. That is just one way of explaining it. Because we have the hadith of the prophet that women will outnumber the men by a substantial margin.
But truly this is an issue for non muslim women only. for all muslims will eventually go to paradise. And since the non muslim women are an overwhelming majority above everyone then the answer should have already been given to you by the statement itself.
Buttercup
Veteran Member
The reason why the thread continues on my friend is because we have conflicting answers from Muslims on this issue. Mujahid Mohammed and Not4Me believe there will be 72 virgins waiting for men.The Truth said:
Once again however, I do sincerely appreciate your lengthy answer. I respect very much people who take the time to answer....even if I do not understand the faith and how it works entirely.
Even if that particular hadith is weak...Personally, I think it was written to try to keep women in line and for that purpose only. But, that's just my opinion.
vandervalley
Active Member
Why would faithful men be given 72 virgins? To clip their toe nails?
Ya I agree. If people in heaven still need sex then it means that they still need to eat and ****. I hope there are sewage plants in heaven to accomodate that.
vandervalley
Active Member
Pardon me. The correct term should be eat and go to toilet
maro
muslimah
Sunstone said:
Phil, we (as muslims) don't really bother ourselves about how life in Paradise is going to be ,
we care to enter Paradise first ,
we are sure that Paradise is the absloute happiness ,
ans since it's made by Allah ( the great creator ),who created us , and knows what makes us happy more than we know it , then there is nothing to worry about
and I agree with you that there must be a lot of love , there
becuse love is one of the most things that make us happy ,
Buttercup said:
Dear Buttercup, i guess you didn't get it yet, they said they have no problem if there is a "sahih" hadith mentioning the number 72 as i do so if there is. That's all.
I just pointed out that the hadith prsented wasn't "sahih" but i have no problem with the concept itself because anything is possible to happen in heaven and we must believe in that too.
Once again however, I do sincerely appreciate your lengthy answer. I respect very much people who take the time to answer....even if I do not understand the faith and how it works entirely.
You are most welcome.
Even if that particular hadith is weak...Personally, I think it was written to try to keep women in line and for that purpose only. But, that's just my opinion.
Well, no one can force you to believe in anything, you and anyone in here is entitled to believe in what they want as i do so.
Thanks again for your questions.
Judgement Day
Active Member
I am disgusted by the way people think when they hear the word "virgin". The only thing they can think of when they hear this word is sex. Virgin is the word used when someone or something is being in a chaste condition, pure, undefiled, unexploited, etc. That does not mean just because they are virgins, you have the right to take away their virginity, nor does this means endless sexual intercourse in the heaven. I think that is just plain sick just to think of it. Who knows if we will still have our sexual organs anymore in heaven. Our sexual organs were designed to clean our body, to take out the toxic waste out of it, and also to reproduce. In heaven, there is no use of our sexual organs as we don't pee or poo anymore. Will we still have our sex organs anymore? Who knows, as only God knows what will happen to our spiritual forms in heaven.
On the other hand, there is no verse in the Quran that states 72 virgins, but instead, according to sura 56 verses 12-38: "In Gardens of Bliss: A number of people from those of old, And a few from those of later times. They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. A Reward for the deeds of their past (life). Not frivolity will they hear therein, nor any taint of ill,- Only the saying, "Peace! Peace". The Companions of the Right Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Right Hand? (They will be) among Lote-trees without thorns, Among Talh trees with flowers (or fruits) piled one above another,- In shade long-extended, By water flowing constantly, And fruit in abundance. Whose season is not limited, nor (supply) forbidden, And on Thrones (of Dignity), raised high. We have created (their Companions) of special creation. And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), - Beloved (by nature), equal in age,- For the Companions of the Right Hand."
This is the one undeniable source that we must rely on, instead of questionable hadiths that may lead one to the other way of the road.
On the other hand, there is no verse in the Quran that states 72 virgins, but instead, according to sura 56 verses 12-38: "In Gardens of Bliss: A number of people from those of old, And a few from those of later times. They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. A Reward for the deeds of their past (life). Not frivolity will they hear therein, nor any taint of ill,- Only the saying, "Peace! Peace". The Companions of the Right Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Right Hand? (They will be) among Lote-trees without thorns, Among Talh trees with flowers (or fruits) piled one above another,- In shade long-extended, By water flowing constantly, And fruit in abundance. Whose season is not limited, nor (supply) forbidden, And on Thrones (of Dignity), raised high. We have created (their Companions) of special creation. And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), - Beloved (by nature), equal in age,- For the Companions of the Right Hand."
This is the one undeniable source that we must rely on, instead of questionable hadiths that may lead one to the other way of the road.
gnostic
The Lost One
Then, the concept of the 72 virgins is merely the adolescent fantasy of one author of this particular hadith, and yet we don't know how many countless Muslims who believe in such...in such, I don't know what to call it....fantasy? fairytale? deception? lie?The Truth said:
You have rebuked me about the hadith not an authentic one, then why keep it among the genuine hadith. I recall many Muslims lecturing and preaching Christians, Jews and even to non-Christians that the Bible is corrupted, and therefore following a lie. But aren't there Muslims who believe in this particular hadith, are also following a lie? There are those Muslims who do take it seriously, even if you and some others don't.
I'd guess if you believe in such fairytales as angels, demon, jinns, creatures made of air or fire, then the 72-virgin-for-the-faithfuls is not beyond the realm of possibilities.
Is that not the way many of your fellow-Muslims think of virgins in the hadith? Sexual playthings for the so-called virtuous men? What do you think of man and virgin? Naturally sex comes easily to mind for most people.Judgement Day said:
Judgement Day
Active Member
No, that's the propaganda used by terrorist's leaders to recruit suicide bombers. I do not think of sex whenever I hear the word virgin, even if you incorporate it in a sentence with the word "man", unless...you are peverted that is. And to note one important thing, that in the surah that I noted up there with blue ink, it does not point out a particular gender. And also note the word "companion"...not a sex toy!gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
If you are forgetting, JD, I'm not the one with the silly notion of the 72 virgins in Paradise.Judgement Day said:
I'm the one who find this concept of reward as being adolescent fantasy of Muslim hadith author, and those lunatics today who believe in such rewards. I'm not the one with sex on my mind....especially since I don't believe in heaven or afterlife. And the notion of sex in heaven would seem like ridiculous fairytale to me.
Judgement Day
Active Member
Well, if this is the case, then you are not alone, my friend. I do not believe in all the hadiths seeing the fact that men could easily manipulate them and claim it to be words from the Prophet. But Quran is guaranteed by God from such things. If a specific hadith conflicts with Quran, then we can say that the hadith is in violation, and must be erradicated.gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
I am great opposer of any erradication of books, whether we agree with them or not.Judgement Day said:
When I replied previously of removing the non-authentic hadiths, I was speaking of burning them or anything like that, which The Truth had rebuked me for. No, my solution would have being to called these unauthentic hadith in a collection as "collection of unauthentic hadiths", or "extra-hadith" or something like that, but in Arabic. So you would have two different hadiths, authentic ones and unauthentic ones, so people can distinguish between the two. It is better to separate them out than destroy outright.
That's why I think it is right in the Judaeo-Christian Bible, there are collections of books known as Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. You (as Muslims in general) should do something like this, with the hadiths.
As I have said, I don't believe we should ever destroy knowledge, such as books, whether we agree with them or not.
For example, I truly hated Moby Dick, 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 with passion, when I was in high school (because they were so damn boring and didn't think they deserved to be labeled as "classic"), but I would lead the charge of burning these books. This is a matter of taste, I would guess. You have heard of the saying: "One man's garbage, is another man's treasure" (or something along that line). If I don't like them, then I just wouldn't read them again. Similarly, I don't always agree with the Bible and Qur'an, but that doesn't mean I would want to destroy them.
And what will be the harm if countless muslims believed in this hadeeth, huh? will make them blowing themselves up? oh, then all the verses n ahadeeth abt Paradise are serious danger which will make muslims blowing themselves or killing others?!
Plus who told you that its kept among the genuine hadeeths?? when the hadeeth is weak, it's said to be weak one. in addition, every one can search and know the authenticity of any hadeeth...but when it's weak or ghareeb, there is a probability that it may be a true one.
I don't know what would you say if you heard abt the other rewards in the Paradise!
Subhan Allah!