There are sources inside the article, so they can only be biased so much (assuming they are in the first place).
Also, Wikipedia or not, the blockade still took place and resulted in the suffering of civilians who weren't involved in the war at all.
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Muslims brotherhood to put Israel-Egypt peace pact to referendum
- Thread starter Shermana
- Start date
There are sources inside the article, so they can only be biased so much (assuming they are in the first place).
Also, Wikipedia or not, the blockade still took place and resulted in the suffering of civilians who weren't involved in the war at all.
Firing Rockets at School Buses or a suicide bombing isn't moral either,pointing the finger at just Israel is IMO unfair
I never said it were, but saying that Israel is innocent is also very unfair to those people whose family were killed in the war.
War produces dead people and i'm sure all their relatives felt it unfair but the simple remedy is don't go to war.
Shermana
Heretic
Israel is breaking the peace by holding onto "Palestinian land" (cough cough)? So you're saying that Israel broke the peace treaty by not giving up Judea Samaria, or rather by staying altogether? Interesting perspective on how you guys think. So you think Israel breaks the peace treaty it made with Egypt for merely existing as a Zionist state? And of course, no need to back your presumption that the land is "Palestinian land". We can argue that in another thread. But it's very interesting to see, is this a common perspective that all Israel has to do is exist as Israel to break the peace treaty with Egypt? That's kinda what I figured how it's commonly seen by the other side, but this helps confirm my view. All the more reason Israel should be stocking up on B-52s.
So are you saying that Egypt has land issues that they want to pressure Israel into handing over to them? If you compare the Egypt peace deal to that with the "Palestinians", you demonstrate total ignorance of the situation. I can only imagine how much you and Samjah represent of this thought mentality. Why isn't the peace deal beneficial for Egypt? Because Egypt wants to invade and take over? More reason for Israel to start buying B-52s. With cluster munitions for large troops concentrations. If Egypt doesn't think peace with Israel is beneficial, perhaps they need a reminder why it is.
Oh they're prevented from starting wars? I bet you think Israel started every single war. "Terrorizing Palestinians". And of course "Palestinians" don't terrorize Israelis. You apparently don't know the peace treaty if you think it includes anything to do with "Palestinians". Have you bothered to look it up in the middle of whatever anti-Israel things you read? Facts can be tiring to learn, but eventually you should know what exactly you're talking about.
Okay, so this is about "Egypt defending Palestine". Well if Egypt wants to defend "Palestine", they're gonna learn a lesson about picking the wrong fight. A very painful, possibly even nuclear lesson if they attack first.
Israel didn't steal it, it took it in war, all territory taken in war is legitimately gained, that's how ALL countries have their borders. And I bet you think as well that Israel attacked Egypt without any provocation or something, we can discuss the 1967 war too. And 1973. You realize Egypt was allied with Syria right? Egypt tried to steal Israel's territory, they just failed. You actually think Egypt won against Israel? I guess this is the propaganda they are teaching these days. Israel has Egypt's 3rd army cornered and Egypt begged for mercy. It's amazing how little actual history and fact the anti-Zionists actually bother to learn. Or it's amazing the distortion of history and fact that they are teaching. I can only wonder if this mentality is more common than I think.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
I think the problem is that through my time here, Muslim members are repeatedly up in arms when the name 'Israel' is brought up. but they have been completely silent about the atrocities and systematic discrimination of Palestinians by other Arab states. the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians expelled from the gulf states in recent years have never been brought up by Muslim members in contrast to the Palestinian refugees of the 1948 war, the fact that many other thousands of Palestinians are being sealed off in camps with inhuman conditions in order to use them as a political tool against Israel has never been mentioned by Muslim members either.
even now when tens of thousands of Arabs have been killed during the Arab spring, Egyptian members are up in arms about Israel, while the sad fact is that they never look at themselves, the number of people killed in recent events throughout the Arab world in one year alone overshadows the numbers of casualties in decades of Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
for too long Israel has been used as a scarecrow for many Muslims in order not to look thoughtfully, seriously, and deeply at their own societies, their own atrocities, and their own discrimination. with so many wars waged between Muslim nations and forces in the last decades, one would think Israel would be their least of concerns. however it is dogmatically used as a relic to awake primal feelings of frustration, usually frustration with everything that is wrong with one's own culture.
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I agree with you that Arab countries don't treat Palestinians so humanely either, but that's something people are trying to change. After decades of being coerced into accepting those regimes, they should now have more control over how things are carried out.
As for the casualties killed throughout the Arab Spring, that's what happens when you rebel against dictatorial regimes. To be fair, I think police states that kill their own citizens for simply protesting them are just as bad or even worse than those who seize others' lands and kill them, but it doesn't make any of Israel's actions more or less acceptable.
Maybe they recognize a red herring when they see one.
Shermana
Heretic
Why is it a red herring? They brought it up as the reason why Egypt should void the peace pact. Even then, what is the meaning of your response? Are you saying that the Palestinian plight in Arab lands is a "red herring" to the conversation somehow when they bring up the Israeli-"Palestinian" situation as a reason for why Egypt should break the peace? If so, how? Are you saying they are justified in ignoring how they are treated in other lands, including Egypt while they use it as a reason to rally against Israel?
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
I have no issues with criticizing the actions of the Israeli government when I deem it appropriate. but I think plenty of the criticism against Israel has been embedded in double standards. many people in the middle east have been severely indoctrinated against this nation and against its people.
the fact is that Israel cannot be singled out in this. often we hear about the fact that Israel has the upper hand and the Palestinians should get the sympathy as the weaker side. but in reality, the Palestinians are far from an innocent party. when their parties carry out terror attacks, and when they themselves fight against each other and oppress their population, the criticism against Israel seems to take a more realistic proportion.
as an Israeli I want to leave in peace, in security, and hopefully in prosperity. I am also willing to live in peace and hopefully in prosperity with my neighbours. but if I am the target of their attacks, I am not going to make it easier for them.
However, how has it not been the case with the propaganda in the middle east for over 60 years. Israel has been a classical red herring for the Arab governments and often the Palestinians themselves from focusing on what they themselves do to each other and to the Palestinians.
it has simply become the standard to judge Israel by one set of standards, simply because as a democracy its easier to put it on the lens, while at the same time no one has high expectations from the other parties. I think that the fact that Israel is expected to take the share of the load because of this is unrealistic and unconstructive. why should Israelis listen to this double standard, when Israel openly handed citizenship to Arabs of the 1948 war who stayed in Palestine? while the same Palestinian Arabs are caged and suffocated in camps without citizenships in various Arab states?
these Arab governments have openly said that the reason their Palestinian population is being kept in this condition is in order to prevent them from assimilating into their states, and in order to use them as a political tool against Israel.
this is a red herring par exellence. only it is directed at Israel.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
The money quote.
"Having said that, I totally understand why Israelis would be very nervous about this move."
Please read the first sentence of my comment responding to your statement above that explains why I think Israelis would be nervous. Painted Wolf, I find your defensive attitude and crummy put-down of my viewpoint, well, weird, coming from a Native American who should know by this time that Palestinians are in a similar position that Native Americans were in when European religious colonists came and wiped so many NAs off the face of the planet. I don't know any of my NA friends who side with European Jewish immigrants repeating all the mistakes European Gentiles made.
Nice Jewish kids in Israel signing bombs to be dropped on Palestinian kids. Isn't fascism in Jewish form such a blessing for Arab peoples. Wonder why they are so hostile to their new friends from overseas?
Shermana
Heretic
Nice Jewish kids in Israel signing bombs to be dropped on Palestinian kids. Isn't fascism in Jewish form such a blessing for Arab peoples. Wonder why they are so hostile to their new friends from overseas?
Those are for Hezbollah, not Palestinians. See the "Nazrala?" And Israel doesn't intentionally drop it on kids, like the Palestinians would. If Palestinian kids get hit, it's unintended collateral. If Israeli kids (such as schoolbuses) get hit, it's intended. But that's justified in your logic, isn't it.
And perhaps you're unaware that the Palestinians use 14 year olds (and under) to man and retrieve their Qassam launchers. But they're justified in your logic I assume.
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Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
First of all at least get it right and don't post false information over the internet. the shells are intended for Hezballah positions in 2006, the name of the terror group's Secretary General is written on the left: "For Nasrallah with [love]".
secondly all soldiers write things like that on artillery during war time for comic relief, whether children should be around in this compound doing this is a different question, and was a failure of the commanding officer on the scene. it has nothing to do with some sinister Israeli agenda. I can perfectly see why kids would find it funny writing love messages to a militant group which just bombed their towns, an organization which is branded as a terrorist organization by nations such as the The United States, the Netherlands, Israel, and Canada.
thirdly, I see you resorted to a well established tactic of propaganda. which is instead of soundly answering and debating to resort to posting photos. this reminds me the Palestinian and Lebanese methods of posting videos and photos in plentiful, with later much of the footage deemed tempered with or embedded in false information. remember that not only you can play this game, we can all get and post 'framing' footage, its very easy. however the difference is that most of us don't resort to such disgusting tactics.
What an ignorant remark.
tell me, do Native Americans have or ever had 22 internationally and officially recognized states?
moreover. in 1948 the united nations declared the creation of TWO STATES in Palestine. one Jewish and one Arab. please remember it were the Arabs who rejected it, with the result being war.
thirdly. please educate yourself. the largest group of Jews in Israel are of middle eastern descent and have lived in the region from the beginning of history, that is for thousands of years.
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Zionist remade history as false as are the flimsy excuses offered here for killing Palestinians whether they are in Palestine or in Lebanon's Palestinian refugee camps. As for the U.N. partition of Palestine, that was a purely European and American orchestrated deal using the newly created U.N. with only 33 member states and fully controlled by the Big Five Powers sitting on the Security Council to cater to Zionist lobbying efforts and oil interest protection, Suez Canal protection, for creating another European religious colony in the Middle East. The 1948 U.N. Partition of Palestine broke the U.N.'s own Charter protecting the self-determination rights of indigenous populations. This is why Palestinians and all Arabs in the region reacted in anger at the imposition of another colonial aggressor in their midst without them ever having a political voice in the matter. No Palestinian ever voted on the matter.
Tell me now, Zionists, how it is possible for the worldwide Jewish population in 1961 to be 91% Ashkenazim Jews vs 9% Sephardic Jews with the great majority of Israeli Jewish immigrants coming from Europe and America, to wind up with an Israeli Sephardic majority population? I'll tell you how. By telling another great big Zionist LIE. And you all fall for this bogus modern history just like you fell for the bogus ancient history where the supposed Moses and Exodus and David and Solomon really existed even though Israeli archeologists themselves claim they didn't having searched for over a century now for artifacts that real historical civilizations left behind instead stories on scrolls.
Next you'll try to pawn off that other Zionist lunacy, that Pals are homeless wandering Arabs even though Palestinian dna is far closer to ancient Israelites than modern Israeli Jews most of whom are descendants of Eastern European, Central Asian Khazar kingdom Jewish converts as a good look at any Ashkenazim dna will tell you, my own included to back up what I say.
Tell me now, Zionists, how it is possible for the worldwide Jewish population in 1961 to be 91% Ashkenazim Jews vs 9% Sephardic Jews with the great majority of Israeli Jewish immigrants coming from Europe and America, to wind up with an Israeli Sephardic majority population? I'll tell you how. By telling another great big Zionist LIE. And you all fall for this bogus modern history just like you fell for the bogus ancient history where the supposed Moses and Exodus and David and Solomon really existed even though Israeli archeologists themselves claim they didn't having searched for over a century now for artifacts that real historical civilizations left behind instead stories on scrolls.
Next you'll try to pawn off that other Zionist lunacy, that Pals are homeless wandering Arabs even though Palestinian dna is far closer to ancient Israelites than modern Israeli Jews most of whom are descendants of Eastern European, Central Asian Khazar kingdom Jewish converts as a good look at any Ashkenazim dna will tell you, my own included to back up what I say.
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painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Your first sentence made no sense. I'm sorry, but launching into a diatribe about colonialism when I was talking about understanding how people would be afraid is unhelpful at best and totally off topic at worst.
I am sympathetic to both the Palestinians and the Israelis. And I'm frustrated by both. Both talk about peace and yet they keep on fighting and blaming the other for it. It's stupid and sad and my heart breaks for those caught up in it.
Both sides are to blame and both are making stupid mistakes. This isn't about what side is right and what side is wrong... it's too late for that as both sides have too much blood on their hands.
However, the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is only tangentially like the experience of the First Nations people... if anything, it's more like when the Cheyenne and Arapaho were forced to share a reservation.
The difference is the Cheyenne and Arapaho faced the situation as adults and realized that for both to have any hope of survival then their leaders would have to work together as adults and not fight each other.
It's a difficult and painful lesson to learn... You need to stop thinking of the people you live with as an enemy and think of peace. You need to stop thirsting for vengeance and seek understanding.
Another major difference... peace treaties were always the goal and First Nations people never wanted anything but to have both sides live and let live.
wa:do