Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[not nom]

I'm saying we can't expect other cultures to fall in line behind us just because we believe they should.

it's not about arbitrary preferences. that wasn't even a nice try.

 

[Godobeyer]

Does it really matter? It didn't seem to matter when you said that if your wife were talking to another man you would slap her. You didn't give any set up or stipulations when you said that. Imagine your own set up in your mind of your imaginary wife speaking to a man. What should happen to that man?

I told the conditions , serieus talking education or work , and in public area , no problem for me .

If you really need an example...here. This is a Muslim man and a Muslim woman talking at a college. Should she be punished if she is married? Should he?

they are in public area , now it's refer what they talking about , if it's about education it's ok , if something else it's haraam .
by the way if some one loved a girl in college , he can talking to her but politly and ask her to marry him . or sent his daughter to her .

 

[Godobeyer]

Self-Righteousness is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is self-righteous to expect the world to see what we have done and just say, "Hey, now that I see what you're doing it makes so much sense." I'm not saying we shouldn't expect other cultures to look like ours, I'm saying we can't expect other cultures to fall in line behind us just because we believe they should.

Yes, this is an internet disccussion site and maybe I'm expecting too much but I've come to see RF as a more intellectual crowd and able to learn and teach instead of just bandy words about.

for one year , i am here in this forum , I can't remember some one (western ) told me you right .

 

[Draka]

they are in public area , now it's refer what they talking about , if it's about education it's ok , if something else it's haraam .
by the way if some one loved a girl in college , he can talking to her but politly and ask her to marry him . or sent his daughter to her .

Now how about answering my question. If a woman talks to a man and should be punished for it, what happens to the man? You said if your wife were to be caught speaking with another man that you would slap her for it. What punishment should be used upon the man she was talking with?

 

[Songbird]

Self-Righteousness is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is self-righteous to expect the world to see what we have done and just say, "Hey, now that I see what you're doing it makes so much sense." I'm not saying we shouldn't expect other cultures to look like ours, I'm saying we can't expect other cultures to fall in line behind us just because we believe they should.

Yes, this is an internet disccussion site and maybe I'm expecting too much but I've come to see RF as a more intellectual crowd and able to learn and teach instead of just bandy words about.

I'm just not sure what you mean about expecting other cultures to fall in line. Who is expecting that? Disapproving of something done in another culture doesn't mean expecting them to fall in line. And even in cases where that's true, so what? It's not demanding that another culture fall in line. And it doesn't mean one's own culture is exempt from one's expectations. I usually stick to critiquing my own culture, because I know it best. But in a forum where we can interact with people of other cultures, it's fine to express my critique of theirs as well. If we all just left each other alone, including turning a blind eye to atrocities, in the name of respecting other cultures, what does that demonstrate? There's a balance between cultural imperialism and apathy, and I don't think anyone's trying to force one culture to do anything in this thread.

 

[beenie]

I'm just not sure what you mean about expecting other cultures to fall in line. Who is expecting that? Disapproving of something done in another culture doesn't mean expecting them to fall in line. And even in cases where that's true, so what? It's not demanding that another culture fall in line. And it doesn't mean one's own culture is exempt from one's expectations. I usually stick to critiquing my own culture, because I know it best. But in a forum where we can interact with people of other cultures, it's fine to express my critique of theirs as well. If we all just left each other alone, including turning a blind eye to atrocities, in the name of respecting other cultures, what does that demonstrate? There's a balance between cultural imperialism and apathy, and I don't think anyone's trying to force one culture to do anything in this thread.

:clap Couldn't agree more.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

There's a balance between cultural imperialism and apathy,

Exactly, what I wanted to find out was what each person considered to be the balance.

I don't think anyone's trying to force one culture to do anything in this thread.

Nor do I, my question was at what point do you, (not you particular, but the general you of everyone in the thread), think a culture should be forced to change? Do you step in to stop genocide? Sometimes we do, if it doesn't effect an election.

If a person is so morally certain that their view is correct, then why not force other cultures to follow through?

 

[Vinayaka]

Godobeyer, how do you feel about a potential husband that would slap your daughter if she was insubordinate?

 

[beenie]

for one year , i am here in this forum , I can't remember some one (western ) told me you right .

You even have other MUSLIMS from all over the world telling you you're wrong.

 

[Drolefille]

I still think this is a subject that you are emotionally vested in and unable to see objectively. I'm not asking you to reconsidered your opinions, just to understand the world may not universally accept them.

It is a privilege to be able to be objective about abuse.
It is a privilege even in our society not to be abused.
How crappy is that?

A question for all the enlightened Westerners on this thread who are so sure that they are correct. If Islamic culture allows for the physical discipline of women by their husbands, fathers and/or brothers, and you are so sure that it is morally wrong and cowardly to boot, should we force them to stop? Should their culture be allowed to define abuse how ever they like? Is allowing them to create a definition that you find abhorrent the same as condoning that definition and by default the action itself? Aren't we taught that all cultures have a right to exist and flourish on the Earth without being influenced by our scandalous Western ways? Where is the line drawn? When does an action performed by another society deserve a response from the rest of the world? When is that response justified as force?

One can be against abuse and against violence against women in particular in all of its forms and have differing opinions on the necessary actions therein.

This question is so meta and out of the realm of the actual conversation being had that it feels like derailing. And it comes off as flippant in the process. I'd suspect the "line" you're talking about could fill up its own thread with debate and responses.

None of that should require anyone to cease disagreeing with and arguing against said violence purely because someone is of a different culture.

My question was a general one and not pertaining to any one person or post. I'm trying to establish whether people think that their moral code is absolutely correct or just correct for their society. People continually make statements that such and such is wrong no matter who you are or where you are, so on and so on. Well a statement like that has implications. If true then why don't we simply force these changes on other societies? People are always saying we have to respect other cultures. We have to try and understand them and learn from them but when it comes time to do so it all falls apart.

Possible answer: Because the only way to force it would be violence which would be equally wrong. I feel like you're assuming that one must learn and understand in a vacuum and never express an opinion on what one has learned. Or that once 'we' understand 'we'll' agree. I can understand why historically and sociologically a culture has condoned violence against women and still be against it. A person in that culture may feel as if there is nothing wrong with it -as Godobeyer appears to - but that doesn't inherently make him right, only right within his cultural context. (And that's arguable as this thread has noted, not everyone in his culture agrees with him... of course then you get into defining culture... And this is why this is a whole separate argument.)

Godobeyer is consitantly trying to expain his position in a language that is obviously a struggle for him but he remains calm and respectful. There is an opportunity here to reach out and help another person see what we consider an error in judgement and possibly even invoke change. Instead I see people doing nothing more than beating him over the head with the "I'm right your wrong" stick. This does not invoke change but instead creates resistance.

I think the discussion started out closer to that, but as it continued and no one seemed like moving it has become more beating over the head with really reasonable arguments that haven't been considered once no matter how calmly he explains his position.

But how do you define beating your wife? Some people define it as any physical blow, others as only extreme violence and a slap is not a beating. Similar to the way some consider any physical blow to a child as abuse and others are fine with a spanking. The idea that you can not discipline your wife is a very recent thing in our culture. While I think its a fine idea and one to spread, its a bit self righteous to expect everyone to just jump on the band wagon because we said so.

As Songbird noted, who is expecting everyone to jump on any bandwagons because "we" said so?

I don't think it's self-righteous. I think it's a needed wake-up. The idea of equality is largely recent, too, with most of humanity involving cruelty and oppression. I think what you're getting at is to say there are cultural differences, and we shouldn't expect other cultures to look like ours. But this is an internet discussion, not a means of forcing anyone to jump on a bandwagon.

And for what it's worth, a slap rarely stays a slap. In cultures where slapping is acceptable, it leads to more violent abuse.

Frubals

Self-Righteousness is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is self-righteous to expect the world to see what we have done and just say, "Hey, now that I see what you're doing it makes so much sense." I'm not saying we shouldn't expect other cultures to look like ours, I'm saying we can't expect other cultures to fall in line behind us just because we believe they should.

And again where is this happening? No one is expecting that.

Yes, this is an internet disccussion site and maybe I'm expecting too much but I've come to see RF as a more intellectual crowd and able to learn and teach instead of just bandy words about.

There's plenty of teaching going on, but I really only see some very one sided learning. Again I think you're assuming that there's not some level understanding on the part of Draka and others just because they disagree. One can do both.

I'm just not sure what you mean about expecting other cultures to fall in line. Who is expecting that? Disapproving of something done in another culture doesn't mean expecting them to fall in line. And even in cases where that's true, so what? It's not demanding that another culture fall in line. And it doesn't mean one's own culture is exempt from one's expectations. I usually stick to critiquing my own culture, because I know it best. But in a forum where we can interact with people of other cultures, it's fine to express my critique of theirs as well. If we all just left each other alone, including turning a blind eye to atrocities, in the name of respecting other cultures, what does that demonstrate? There's a balance between cultural imperialism and apathy, and I don't think anyone's trying to force one culture to do anything in this thread.

I can't frubal you twice.

Exactly, what I wanted to find out was what each person considered to be the balance.



Nor do I, my question was at what point do you, (not you particular, but the general you of everyone in the thread), think a culture should be forced to change? Do you step in to stop genocide? Sometimes we do, if it doesn't effect an election.

If a person is so morally certain that their view is correct, then why not force other cultures to follow through?

I don't think that question can be answered in this thread. I could throw out a half dozen possible answers but none of them would cover everyone's thoughts.

It is, however, perfectly possible to pressure cultures to change but it is far more ideal if that change happens from within. In which case this conversation with Godobeyer doesn't really matter. It's the conversations with Muslim women who live in countries and cultures where this is considered acceptable behavior that will matter. Ultimately they are the ones who will be able to effect change from within rather than imposition from the outside. Since we're on the outside, all we can do is talk about it and might as well.

I'd be interested in a thread about your other topic though if you haven't already started one, it's interesting.




Everyone else has done a really good job with the main focus of this thread and so I just wanted to jump in on the side topic going on...

 

[Godobeyer]

Godobeyer, how do you feel about a potential husband that would slap your daughter if she was insubordinate?

I will try to avoid the prejuge , i listen to them both , then , I will try to find out why she insubordinate with him , what he did to her to be like that , but if i find out that my daughter was insubordinate for no reason . I will ask her to be good with her husband to avoid this situation next time .

accuatly In Islam the authority of the parents (father/mother ) is limited when she got married , her husband will be the full responsible and authority with her not me .

 

[Godobeyer]

You even have other MUSLIMS from all over the world telling you you're wrong.

accuatly every one had right or wrong , for me i will admit when i will be wrong .
I feel no shame about that .

for this thread , you against my view , but you did not give anything against my view from the Quran or hadith .

my question is clear and for you ssainhu : are against to beat insubordinate wife or with ?

you are just talking in view closer the western life , for me i don't prefer that , because if some one admire Islam , he will find out that Islam tell other things and laws (not as you told him before )

 

[beenie]

accuatly every one had right or wrong , for me i will admit when i will be wrong .
I feel no shame about that .

for this thread , you against my view , but you did not give anything against my view from the Quran or hadith .

my question is clear and for you ssainhu : are against to beat insubordinate wife or with ?

you are just talking in view closer the western life , for me i don't prefer that , because if some one admire Islam , he will find out that Islam tell other things and laws (not as you told him before )

I reject the definition of "daraba" meaning "beat".

“…And live with them in kindness…” (Quran 4:19)

“A believing man should not hate a believing woman. If he dislikes something in her character, he should be pleased with some other trait of hers.”

 

[Songbird]

Exactly, what I wanted to find out was what each person considered to be the balance.



Nor do I, my question was at what point do you, (not you particular, but the general you of everyone in the thread), think a culture should be forced to change? Do you step in to stop genocide? Sometimes we do, if it doesn't effect an election.

If a person is so morally certain that their view is correct, then why not force other cultures to follow through?

As Drolefille said in a later reply, that's a better topic for a new thread. I have no qualms about pressuring anyone in any culture to be non violent, but also as Drolefille said, it's a meta conversation with a lot of ground to cover.

 

[Godobeyer]

I reject the definition of "daraba" meaning "beat".

“…And live with them in kindness…” (Quran 4:19)

“A believing man should not hate a believing woman. If he dislikes something in her character, he should be pleased with some other trait of hers.”

accuatly we have two cases
1- the definition of the word , or the meaning of sentence "tafsir "
if you choose the meaning of the word it's mean 100% it's mean " beat"
- there is no another definition in english closer to arabic mean than " beat "

الضرب which spell "aldarb "

2-
but if you meaning the true explain of all the verse , that's other thing .
because each one of the Muslims scholars had an explain different .
one of them it's soft beat by "siwak " (siwak: is small stick used to clean the teeth "), don't make marks in body or hurt so much .
but it's called also beat , how do you want to call it ? "soft beating " ?


4-34
فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

see the word that you insist that it's wrong mean, how google translator ,translate it :yes:

Google*Traduction

 

[Godobeyer]

“…And live with them in kindness…” (Quran 4:19)

“A believing man should not hate a believing woman. If he dislikes something in her character, he should be pleased with some other trait of hers.”

btw i forget to comment to these verse of Quran , these are adivce/solution from God to us , it's about a normal wife which considerate not the insubordinate woman .

 

[Draka]

btw i forget to comment to these verse of Quran , these are adivce/solution from God to us , it's about a normal wife which considerate not the insubordinate woman .

Do you think perhaps another issue here is your definition of "insubordinate"? You seem to think that just talking or speaking with another man is being insubordinate. By your own words you said if you were to catch your wife talking to a "foreign" man you would slap her. That just speaking with another man is haraam and insubordination. Others do not feel that is insubordination. Your ideas of what is "normal" and "insubordinate" seem to vary greatly from not only non-Muslims and "westerners", but other Muslims as well. Not just Muslims from the west either. Debater Slayer, for one, is not a westerner and yet even he disagrees with you on the very basic premise of whether or not it is allowable to slap a woman at all. Have you ever thought that maybe it isn't everyone else? Maybe it is you whose views and interpretations are "off"?

 

[Godobeyer]

let me explain :
God gave solutions for insubordinate woman ok
for me if i found my wife talking to a foreign man for normal reason without my permission , i will slap her and may disover her .

I will allowed her in conditions that i allowed my wife talking to forgien men . for eduction for exemple or server her self in public area super market for exemple .

but other Muslims as well. Not just Muslims from the west either. Debater Slayer

my brother Debater , I don't know where he or they against my view "opinion" ?
they asked and i repond by Hadith and Quran for reason about "insubordinate wife",

for my opinion about "slap of love " (which i told that woman fall in love more and more when she slapped by her man , when she got wrong with him "

it's just experience of mind maybe i should not post it here . it's not a law belong to my religion , and they (the other muslim memeber )maybe against my view ,and against my post about "slap of love " which maybe i don't have the right to tell it here .

 

[Godobeyer]

I love to be honest more , no one Muslim in the world , would be against that verse of Quran .

because if they would against that verse which allowed to husband to beat (soflty ) his insubordinate wife "
that mean they against God .

 

[Debater Slayer]

let me explain :
God gave solutions for insubordinate woman ok
for me if i found my wife talking to a foreign man for normal reason without my permission , i will slap her and may disover her .

I will allowed her in conditions that i allowed my wife talking to forgien men . for eduction for exemple or server her self in public area super market for exemple .


my brother Debater , I don't know where he or they against my view "opinion" ?
they asked and i repond by Hadith and Quran for reason about "insubordinate wife",

for my opinion about "slap of love " (which i told that woman fall in love more and more when she slapped by her man , when she got wrong with him "

it's just experience of mind maybe i should not post it here . it's not a law belong to my religion , and they (the other muslim memeber )maybe against my view ,and against my post about "slap of love " which maybe i don't have the right to tell it here .

Hadith explicitly forbids getting anywhere near the face with regards to "beating". Your definition seems to make room for slapping/punching, and even harsh beating because the wife is supposedly "insubordinate".