Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[Storm]

i am jeolous man .

Well, I don't think anyone's contesting that point.

 

[Enlighten]

for more info ,
in general case the Muslim wife don't have the right (forbidane to kiss or just touche any forgien man even she know him .only in emergenrcy cases like a doctor can touch her .....etc
everyone is stranger for my wife except her small family . her father or ancles or brothers of course .

So she can't even shake a strangers hand when being introduced to them? When you say everyone is a stranger, does that not put unnecessary restrictions on her freedom? Is she allowed to at least communicate with strangers/people who are not part of her "small family"?

 

[Shia Islam]

I have seen the argument here, by a Muslim, that it is acceptable for a husband to slap or "softly" hit his wife if she is "wrong". That it makes her feel more "feminine" and that it proves she is with a "man". That this is acceptable within Islam.

Is this stance something actually accepted within Islam? That physical punishment of a wife by her husband is the norm and okay? Or is this a fringe thought held only by some Muslims?

I know that men of all different faiths, and non-faith, will sometimes treat their wives and GFs like this, but I don't believe it is actually a held and accepted tenet of any other religion that I know of that this kind of behavior is okay.

So, can some Muslims here please address if this is actually an accepted practice or do you feel it is a fringe idea used as justification for abuse?

The argument you have seen is wrong.

In Al-Kafi (one of the main Shia Muslim sources), it's stated that when death approached Imam Alil peace be upon him, he mentioned the following in his will:

Fear Allah in relation to the women and slaves, since the last thing your prophet has spoken was saying: I advise you concerning the [two weak(s)] women and slaves [to treat them well].

Note that the prophet was not approving having weaker sectors in the society, but was rather describing a situation in that society.

To understand what this prioritization means, one must consider how the Quran is expecting Muslims to behave in general. A Muslim is not only hold to account for his actions, but even for every single word he speaks:

" He [man] uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready. "
Quran: سورة 50 - آية 18

Based on this, shia Ayatollahs have taken very strong stance regarding violence against women. For example here is Ayatollah Fadlullah exact statement:

"If men practice physical violence against women, and the latter have no means to defend themselves except through exchanging violence. This would be permissible as an act of self-defence. "

Sayyed Fadlullah: The women have the right to defend themselves against Men's violence. [Available Online]

This understanding is compatible with the Quranic view of the Islamic family, as described in the following verses:

"And of His signs is that He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may cohabit with them; and He has set between you love and mercy. Surely in that are signs for a people who consider."
Quran: 30-21

"It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them... "
Quran: سورة 2 - آية 187

 

[Godobeyer]

Would you allow your wife to come on a forum such as this
(where no one can kiss or touch)
and converse in a friendly manner with everyone/anyone here?
(as you do)

of course I let her ,for this forum is ok to chat with others with respect .
and because there is no smilies of love or kiss .

 

[Draka]

of course I let her ,for this forum is ok to chat with others with respect .
and because there is no smilies of love or kiss .

:hugkiss::dan::hug: I don't know, we have all kinds of smiley fun to be had here

 

[Storm]

and because there is no smilies of love or kiss .

:hugkiss: :hug: :hearts: :dan: :kissbette

:cover:

 

[Godobeyer]

How convenient for muslim husbands!



Requiring a leader in everything hasn't worked out that well for muslim societies has it? I think that that attitude needs to change.

If you must have a leader in the family, would you approve of the wife being the leader?

yeah she is the leader of the house , and we (men) the leaders out the house , see the different (in space) between the inside 200 m2 and leader out out side 200 m2 , it's just a joke
in every binaire or plus relationship should the leader .even we did not admint we will discover that one of them , his choice which taken most of the time .

to be honest , I see many men (muslims ) obey (the oposite) their wives , because they are beautiful or they are fall in love over normal , or she had more money .(rich)

 

[Godobeyer]

:hugkiss: :hug: :hearts: :dan: :kissbette

:cover:

lol :run:
I change my mind

 

[Godobeyer]

The argument you have seen is wrong.

In Al-Kafi (one of the main Shia Muslim sources), it's stated that when death approached Imam Alil peace be upon him, he mentioned the following in his will:

Fear Allah in relation to the women and slaves, since the last thing your prophet has spoken was saying: I advise you concerning the [two weak(s)] women and slaves [to treat them well].

Note that the prophet was not approving having weaker sectors in the society, but was rather describing a situation in that society.

To understand what this prioritization means, one must consider how the Quran is expecting Muslims to behave in general. A Muslim is not only hold to account for his actions, but even for every single word he speaks:

" He [man] uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready. "
Quran: سورة 50 - آية 18

Based on this, shia Ayatollahs have taken very strong stance regarding violence against women. For example here is Ayatollah Fadlullah exact statement:

"If men practice physical violence against women, and the latter have no means to defend themselves except through exchanging violence. This would be permissible as an act of self-defence. "

Sayyed Fadlullah: The women have the right to defend themselves against Men's violence. [Available Online]

This understanding is compatible with the Quranic view of the Islamic family, as described in the following verses:

"And of His signs is that He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may cohabit with them; and He has set between you love and mercy. Surely in that are signs for a people who consider."
Quran: 30-21

"It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them... "
Quran: سورة 2 - آية 187

yes , you right
the woman is weaker than the man , that why God order the man to care about her .
I had experience when we saw a girl beated by stranger man in the road,sudenly all the men defend for her , they beat that man very hard , then took him to police .
I will do the same if i see someone beat a woman or old man .

I respect the women so much , I study in university , my class had 30 student , 25 girls and 5 boys , many times i ask their help to understand something or copy the lesson from them ...etc

honestly here most of the time the women are honest and cool than the men .

 

[Drolefille]

yes , you right
the woman is weaker than the man , that why God order the man to care about her .
I had experience when we saw a girl beated by stranger man in the road,sudenly all the men defend for her , they beat that man very hard , then took him to police .
I will do the same if i see someone beat a woman or old man .

I respect the women so much , I study in university , my class had 30 student , 25 girls and 5 boys , many times i ask their help to understand something or copy the lesson from them ...etc

honestly here most of the time the women are honest and cool than the men .

My problem is that everything you're saying right here seems completely incompatible - impossible to agree with hitting a woman.

If you're instructed to 'care for' and 'protect' a woman, then at no time is hitting a woman fitting with that.

If you respect a woman then why would you even consider hitting her.

 

[Godobeyer]

My problem is that everything you're saying right here seems completely incompatible - impossible to agree with hitting a woman.

If you're instructed to 'care for' and 'protect' a woman, then at no time is hitting a woman fitting with that.

If you respect a woman then why would you even consider hitting her.

yeah it's seems contradiction , but each time had it's event .
edited : I am talknig for women in general , but this thread is for Muslim woman .especialy insubordinate wife
i respect all the woman and will respect my wife , but if she made a wrong with me , and did not respect me , what can i do in this case
I made many exemples
if my wife insult me for any reason,even i deserve that i should had a reaction to stop her .
if my wife go out house without my permission , i should had a reaction to warning her .
if i catch my wife cheating me with someone on the phone,or internet..etc, i should had a reaction in that time, then disover her .
as I see that the woman is not perfect ceature and the man also .all made errors , the best one who admit his errors and try to correct it .

 

[Drolefille]

yeah it's seems contradiction , but each time had it's event .
edited : I am talknig for women in general , but this thread is for Muslim woman .especialy insubordinate wife
i respect all the woman and will respect my wife , but if she made a wrong with me , and did not respect me , what can i do in this case
I made many exemples
if my wife insult me for any reason,even i deserve that i should had a reaction to stop her .
if my wife go out house without my permission , i should had a reaction to warning her .
if i catch my wife cheating me with someone on the phone,or internet..etc, i should had a reaction in that time, then disover her .
as I see that the woman is not perfect ceature and the man also .all made errors , the best one who admit his errors and try to correct it .

But by hitting her, you wrong her and do not respect her. And you will lose her respect as well.

You listed the type of reactions you can have including talking to her and divorcing her. If you just remove hitting her from that list, that list is still a good one.

Are you saying that hitting her is an error? If so then I agree that men and women both make errors and both should work to correct them.

If you say that hitting her is not an error, I believe you are wrong.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

for my experience beat insubordinate wife is good solution .
and if my sister or my daughter were beat by their husband because they were insubordinate I will not be sorry , because I give him my sister or my daughter to subordinate to her husband . and it's was her choose ,"her lover", it's she did not accept to continous to live with him "for any reason " , that other case .

Beating a woman is an act of cowardice, how weak does a man's ego have to be if he directs violence towards a lady? And in my opinion any physically-abused female should speak out and get herself support, we should not tolerate such kind of behaviour within the Islamic community.

 

[Kerr]

yes , you right
the woman is weaker than the man , that why God order the man to care about her .
I had experience when we saw a girl beated by stranger man in the road,sudenly all the men defend for her , they beat that man very hard , then took him to police .
I will do the same if i see someone beat a woman or old man .

I respect the women so much , I study in university , my class had 30 student , 25 girls and 5 boys , many times i ask their help to understand something or copy the lesson from them ...etc

honestly here most of the time the women are honest and cool than the men .

You know, one thing I learned from martial arts is that the idea of women being weaker then men is quite wrong. Of course, I am not saying you should not help someone who is attacked, just that I dont think we should regard woman as "weaker".

 

[Godobeyer]

Beating a woman is an act of cowardice, how weak does a man's ego have to be if he directs violence towards a lady? And in my opinion any physically-abused female should speak out and get herself support, we should not tolerate such kind of behaviour within the Islamic community.

4-34

الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

how you can explain to the word "beat them "this verse ?واضربوهن

 

[Godobeyer]

You know, one thing I learned from martial arts is that the idea of women being weaker then men is quite wrong. Of course, I am not saying you should not help someone who is attacked, just that I dont think we should regard woman as "weaker".

for me i will never married a woman learn martial arts .
we here could not resolve our problems with normal women , how about whick learnd KARATI hhhhhhhhhhhhh:run:

 

[Godobeyer]

But by hitting her, you wrong her and do not respect her. And you will lose her respect as well.

You listed the type of reactions you can have including talking to her and divorcing her. If you just remove hitting her from that list, that list is still a good one.

Are you saying that hitting her is an error? If so then I agree that men and women both make errors and both should work to correct them.

If you say that hitting her is not an error, I believe you are wrong.

you had right
here the huge problems which take the men to beat her wives are very few , and rare ,becaus most the women are not insubordinate to their husbands .

 

[beenie]

You know, one thing I learned from martial arts is that the idea of women being weaker then men is quite wrong. Of course, I am not saying you should not help someone who is attacked, just that I dont think we should regard woman as "weaker".

So true! I'm all of 5'4" and I weigh around 90 pounds, and I took down a 6'1" good sized dude the other day. Smaller people, whether they're men or women, just need to use their leverage differently.

This thread still keeps me up at night.

 

[Looncall]

you had right
here the huge problems which take the men to beat her wives are very few , and rare ,becaus most the women are not insubordinate to their husbands .

Perhaps it's high time for them to become insubordinate and free themselves from their enslaved state.

I call to mind a Greek play, Lysistrata, in which the women all withhold sex to end a war.

 

[not nom]

for me i will never married a woman learn martial arts .

that's the solution then: less talking, more women learning martial arts... let the remaining dudes who can't get with the program simply pretend they have a family. just like they now pretend they're men, shouldn't be much of a change.