Muslims who don't trust Scholars

[cocolia42]

I'll read your article, in sha Allah, but I wanted to comment on this while it was on my mind:

Even though, a muslim could express his/her understanding of a good implementation of details and share it with the peers, whose feedback can help revealing the level of interference of the inciting self.

I don't think this is a good approach because we tend to associate with like minded people. If I like to listen to music, I'll have friends that like to listen to music. So they would not likely give me evidence to support the thought that music is haram. And of course it works the other way as well. It also works in a larger sense. Whole communities would be of mostly like minded people.

At least that's my initial opinion

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

I don't think this is a good approach because we tend to associate with like minded people. If I like to listen to music, I'll have friends that like to listen to music. So they would not likely give me evidence to support the thought that music is haram. And of course it works the other way as well. It also works in a larger sense. Whole communities would be of mostly like minded people.

Good point! I had not considered that. I myself usually hang out with people whose way of thinking is very different from mine. But that is probably not the case for everybody.

Perhaps the solution would be forums like this where we get the golden opportunity of running our understanding with people who most likely have a different point of view.

 

[TashaN]

Not sure I quite agree with you in this part. Lets take one of the the MOST authentic Hadiths in Islam: al-Thaqalayn (ثقلی&#1606. Shia and Sunni belief in two hugely different versions of this Hadith:

Shia version:
Zaid bin Arqam, narrated that the messenger of Allah . said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).

Sunni version:
according to the Muwatta[3] by Malik ibn Anas:
" 46.3 Yahya related to me from Malik that he heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I have left two things with you. As long as you hold fast to them, you will not go astray. They are the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet.".

Hadith of the two weighty things - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure who told you it was the most authentic hadith. Hadiths are either authentic or not. We don't have something called "the most authentic hadith".

You are referring here to two different hadiths. One is about adhering to Quran and also taking care of his family and their descendants and the other talking about Quran and Sunnah.

Both Sunnis and Shi'a agree on the validity of the hadith but they differ only in its interpretation whether it means that Muslims should take good care of Prophet family or to appoint them as well as successors.

Hadiths science is a very big subject and need it's own thread. It's not as straight forward as you might think at first.

Nevertheless, to say that we need to abandon hadiths all together is dangerous to Islam since we will lose a great portion of what Islam is really like in practice, since Quran deals with the idea of God and wisdom for humanity more than step by step manual on how to practice islam on our daily life.

That's why Muslim scholars despite the difficulties they face don't say we have to either accept all or reject all. They are moderate in accepting what they believe to be true and reject what they believe to be incorrect and there are many hadiths are in between so they neither accept nor reject, and as i said, it's a very big and well detailed topic.

 

[Assad91]

As someone who doesn't know Arabic and is not taught in the various sciences related to jurisprudence, I'll put my faith in a scholar.

 

[Breathe]

I'm not a Muslim, and this is quote an old post, but I see that you have been active today, so I hope you don't mind me chiming in with a few questions.

Is there a reason you choose not to trust scholars? (That is, why do you not trust them?) Is there a particular reason?
What don't you trust about scholars? What don't you trust what they say?
Do you accept hadith?

What do you mean by "trust"?
Do you extend this to other sources?
What would you suggest to people who do not have good Arabic?
What do you think of tafsir?

Thanks.

 

[TashaN]

I'm not a Muslim, and this is quote an old post, but I see that you have been active today, so I hope you don't mind me chiming in with a few questions.

Is there a reason you choose not to trust scholars? (That is, why do you not trust them?) Is there a particular reason?
What don't you trust about scholars? What don't you trust what they say?
Do you accept hadith?

What do you mean by "trust"?
Do you extend this to other sources?
What would you suggest to people who do not have good Arabic?
What do you think of tafsir?

Thanks.

Till he comes to answer you, here is some links for the detailed arguments he made in his website about this issue.

Simple Islam - Trust-EN

Simple Islam - Hadith-EN

 

[Breathe]

Till he comes to answer you, here is some links for the detailed arguments he made in his website about this issue.

Simple Islam - Trust-EN

Simple Islam - Hadith-EN

Thanks for that, TashaN; I'll read through them now to get a feel for it.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

I'm not sure who told you it was the most authentic hadith. Hadiths are either authentic or not.

They are moderate in accepting what they believe to be true and reject what they believe to be incorrect and there are many hadiths are in between so they neither accept nor reject

That is what I meant by the degree of authenticity of a Hadith. When it comes to history of 1400 years ago that reportedly was not written until decades after the incidents, certainty about the occurred events is not feasible. I do not need to be a Hadith expert to understand this reality.

Lets not get into details of Hadiths as I am admittedly not an expert. The bottom line is that in contrary to the way you described the Hadiths there is no unanimity about them.

as i said, it's a very big and well detailed topic.

We are on the same page regarding the level of complexity that Hadiths have added to religion.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

As someone who doesn't know Arabic and is not taught in the various sciences related to jurisprudence, I'll put my faith in a scholar.

And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah. ... (2:165)
when those who have been followed disassociate themselves from those who followed [them], and they [all] see the punishment, and cut off from them are the ties [of relationship], (2:166) Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire. (2:167)

I understand that learning Arabic is difficult for you and you might not have the time to do so. But what I recommend is that instead of "putting your faith in a scholar" listen to "many scholar" with variety of points of view and urge them to provide you with "verifiable arguments".

Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding. (39:18)

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Till he comes to answer you, here is some links for the detailed arguments he made in his website about this issue.

Simple Islam - Trust-EN

Simple Islam - Hadith-EN

Thanks TashaN. In addition to them your questions are partly answered in the following post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3655445-post27.html

 

[Breathe]

Thanks TashaN. In addition to them your questions are partly answered in the following post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3655445-post27.html

Thanks for that.

 

[Assad91]

And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah. ... (2:165)
when those who have been followed disassociate themselves from those who followed [them], and they [all] see the punishment, and cut off from them are the ties [of relationship], (2:166) Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire. (2:167)

I understand that learning Arabic is difficult for you and you might not have the time to do so. But what I recommend is that instead of "putting your faith in a scholar" listen to "many scholar" with variety of points of view and urge them to provide you with "verifiable arguments".

Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding. (39:18)

I may not know Arabic well, but I know and understand the concept of shirk. And you're way off on your attempt to equate following the learned to shirk.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You know the main meaning of "Kafar" (کف&#1585 is being ungrateful by hiding/denying the truth. "Kaafer" (کاف&#1585 is mostly translated as disbelievers sine they are ungrateful towards the God. You can see examples in Quran that the follower of other religion are also called "Kaafer" (کاف&#1585 since they were ungrateful towards the gift of Quran:

And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them... (2:91)

Believers are also sometimes called "Kaafer" as their behavior is ungrateful:

Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray. (3:90)

In fact, every Muslim is always somewhere between the two states of Belief and Ungratefulness:

... They were nearer to disbelief that day than to faith, saying with their mouths what was not in their hearts. And Allah is most Knowing of what they conceal - (3:167)

So I would not rush into dismissing a verse since it has the term "ungrateful" (کف&#1585 in it.

My point was not regarding the word 'Kafir' at all. I stated using the context of your quoted verses that they are regarding the scholars/teachers of the disbelievers. See the following quotes from your article - they don't refer to the word 'kafir'/disbeliever at all - so your point above is completely invalid.

"And they will say, "Our Lord, indeed we obeyed our masters and our dignitaries, and they led us astray from the

way. (67)

Following the Elders will led people to apply the deviated religious culture of their local community.

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? (170)

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that upon which we found our fathers." Even if Satan was inviting them to the punishment of the Blaze? (21)"
​

My understanding is that Quran tells the story of mistakes of previous religions so that we do not make the same mistakes again. The previous religions had a prophet initially, the prophet dies, and then their religions gets heavily deviated from its origin by following the religious leaders and take their instructions equivalent to the prophet or the God's commands.

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. (9:31)

That's exactly what I said. Jewish and Christian scholars changed their religion and see where they are now. Even now, you can distinguish the truth from the falsehood if you read the actual scripture from their man made expansion of those texts. For example, New Testament clearly states that they should follow the law and the commandments but Christian scholars teach otherwise. So that's what it is talking about when the deviation is quite apparent. You cannot apply the same to minor differences of opinion in religious matters. That's is in no way equivalent to 'worshiping the scholars'.

Lets say there was a verse that would explicitly say "Do not follow Muslim scholars". Then do you really think the current Muslim scholars would adopt the title "scholar". Of course not, otherwise nobody would follow them. The would probabely call themselves "the knowers", or "the educaters".

Quran explains the concepts by telling the stories of the previous mistakes. We are supposed to learn from them and not make the same mistakes.

Last but not least there are examples that are not associated with terms "ungrateful" or "Christianity". They rather associated with the term "People" and the verse is intentionally kept general by using the terms "followers" and "followed" so it would apply to any community and any time:

And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah. ... (2:165)
when those who have been followed disassociate themselves from those who followed [them], and they [all] see the punishment, and cut off from them are the ties [of relationship], (2:166) Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire. (2:167)

No people of real knowledge (i.e. scholar) claims to be a 'Scholar'. Other people who benefit from them and realize their status, calls them 'Scholars'.

Also, please read the verse again and see what it says ' those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]' - following a scholar is no way equivalent to that. We never take a scholar to be anywhere near equal to Allah(swt). We only respect and love a scholar because they have dedicated their time/effort to learn the Qur'an and the Sunnah and how to practice Islam best. Even then we don't blindly follow any scholars. Anyone is free to use reason and decide to agree/disagree with a scholar or follow a different scholar. So that verse in no way refers to following Scholars of Islam. Now I agree that there could be some off shoot groups who distort Islam and can belong to that category but that's exception not norm.

It is a bit unfair to generalize this verse to scholars. What scholars do is not learning Quran and passing it to people. The study a certain literature (whose associativity to Islam is subject to another discussion) and tell people that learning that literature is too difficult and would take years of study. So people have left with no choice but following the scholars instruction that is supposedly inspired by that literature.

During this discussions I never asked you to follow my opinion. I rather presented the arguments that I observed during my studies. You still have the option of verifying the argument and accept/reject them. This is way different from the relationship of scholars and followers.

That red part above is absolutely incorrect. Islam is a religion based on knowledge - without knowledge(of Qur'an and Sunnah) you simply cannot practice Islam. However, not everyone has the time or ability to learn all that knowledge. Islam is a very practical religion and the most practical and reasonable thing to do is you go to an expert for advice, learning and knowledge in any field. That's where the Scholars come into the picture. Islam does not mandate following a particular Scholar per say but it is only natural that common folks go to someone to get their knowledge unless they themselves have spent enough time/effort to learn and that's precisely what the verse is referring to.

Read the verse again : "Nor should the Believers all go forth together: if a contingent from every expedition remained behind, they could devote themselves to studies in religion, and admonish the people when they return to them,- that thus they (may learn) to guard themselves (against evil)." (Al Qur'an 9:122)

If what you state is true, there would be no reason for Allah(swt) to say that a group should devote themselves to study the religion so they can remind the others when they return. Why didn't Allah(swt) say that when they return they should study the religion ? In my opinion, it is because, in His infinite wisdom, Allah(swt) knows that we will get busy with different roles (some in war, some in humanitarian works, some with life etc.) so we need others who's dedicated role is to learn and teach. Allah(swt) knows best.​

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

I may not know Arabic well, but I know and understand the concept of shirk. And you're way off on your attempt to equate following the learned to shirk.

Question: Who taught you the concept of shirk?
Probable Answer: Your trusted scholar

Do you see the circle here?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Question: Who taught you the concept of shirk?
Probable Answer: Your trusted scholar

Do you see the circle here?

Wrong answer. Scholars taught us the basics and then we read the Qur'an and the Hadiths and use our brain to come to a conclusion. And still some version of the explanation(from Scholars) we don't agree with while we agree with the other scholars(who broadens my knowledge with things that we could never imagine or come up with on our own). So no there's no circle.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

so your point above is completely invalid.

I guess we are getting off the topic and I started failing to observe arguments. I let each person individually read the verses mentioned at the end of this article and judge whether it applies to the current "follower-followed" relation between them and their scholars. A good method to verify the nature of my relation with scholars is asking the following questions:

1) When was the last time my scholar(s) accompanied his opinion with verifiable arguments?
2) When was the last time I urged my scholar(s) to provide me with arguments?
3) When was the last time I rejected my scholar(s)'s arguments after verifying them?

Simple Islam - Trust-EN

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Wrong answer. Scholars taught us the basics and then we read the Qur'an and the Hadiths and use our brain to come to a conclusion.

I have read many Hadiths but never claimed that I read all of them. You must be an extraordinary person.

You probably know Arabic. For the people who do not, I invite them to compare at least 4-5 diverse translations and observe the differences. Translations are sort of interpretations as among the many possible translations the translator choose the one that agrees with his view of the world. If the scholar who translates Quran believes that his follower-followed relation with people is not Shirk he would translate Quran in a way that agrees with that.

And still some version of the explanation(from Scholars) we don't agree with while we agree with the other scholars(who broadens my knowledge with things that we could never imagine or come up with on our own). So no there's no circle.

As I said you seemed to be an exceptional person. My target audience are normal people that I live with and talk to everyday.

Also if I go to liquor store I have many choices of drinks to buy. But at the end what I purchase is basically alcohol. I might feel free by the spectrum of choices that I have considered, but at the end I would be restricted by my very first move of entering a liquor store.

Hearing out multiple scholars is good but if there is not much diversity and they are basically from the same (or similar) schools then what I get would be the illusion of choice.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I have read many Hadiths but never claimed that I read all of them. You must be an extraordinary person.

First of all, I never claimed to have read all the Hadiths. What I stated is whatever the issue at hand is, you read about it from the Qur'an and relevant Hadiths. So I don't know where you got the above from.

You probably know Arabic. For the people who do not, I invite them to compare at least 4-5 diverse translations and observe the differences. Translations are sort of interpretations as among the many possible translations the translator choose the one that agrees with his view of the world. If the scholar who translates Quran believes that his follower-followed relation with people is not Shirk he would translate Quran in a way that agrees with that.

No I am not an arabic speaker. I know the basics of Arabic and from that can study further to analyze a word or so using other sources etc. to an extent.

But there is a problem with your line of thinking. Imagine your child has some sort of disease(God forbid - but just an analogy) and the doctors suggest a major surgery as a solution. What is the most reasonable thing to do ? Wouldn't you consult with some other doctors and then finally make a decision as to what to do ? Now one scenario is that all the doctors agree on the solution which you don't like. Would you say that since all the doctors got their information from the medical school boards, they don't have diversity and hence they are probably fed the same wrong information? You would never do that. Yet, you have no problem believing that these scholars of Islam are into a conspiracy to change the religion of Islam from what was revealed.

Now, consider the other scenario where the doctors have differing opinions as to what to do. However, you as a parent have to ultimately decide which opinion to take based on advice from others, your research etc. Won't you ? The role of a scholar is no different.

As I said you seemed to be an exceptional person. My target audience are normal people that I live with and talk to everyday.

Also if I go to liquor store I have many choices of drinks to buy. But at the end what I purchase is basically alcohol. I might feel free by the spectrum of choices that I have considered, but at the end I would be restricted by my very first move of entering a liquor store.

Hearing out multiple scholars is good but if there is not much diversity and they are basically from the same (or similar) schools then what I get would be the illusion of choice.

Once again, I am no exceptional person just an average Muslim who might spend little more time in studying/researching some issues of doubt.

But I would argue that the solution you are proposing for the 'normal' everyday people is more unrealistic and more dangerous. What is the solution for a non-arabic speaker other than relying on translations ? If you think, they'd rather learn arabic themselves and read and understand the Qur'an than rely on the teachers/scholars - then you are dreaming. For the majority, it is not going to happen.

In fact, by having multiple translations/interpretations, it acts as a checks and balance. And even for arabic speakers, if you left it upto common folks to interpret it, what do you think would happen when they read simple verses like Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ?????? this ? You'd see spousal abuses all over the place - cause that's what a simple reading of that verse gives you. Only when some knowledgeable scholars explains it with context, you know that it doesn't mean what it seems(apparently).

I think we have enough diversity among the scholars of Islam in a variety of issues. Anymore and we'd be like the Christians as to believe and do as you please. Also, I think this comes from a pre-conceived notion that the scholars have already changed the religion to force it on the people (different from what Allah(swt) and the Prophet(pbuh) taught). I can deduce that from your opinion on Hadiths. I will counter that some other day InShaAllah.

Peace.

 

[safdar.dushantappeh]

I am afraid I do not find the discussion constructive as I find many untrue things like conspiracy theorems out of nowhere attributed to my position. Anyway...

And even for arabic speakers, if you left it upto common folks to interpret it, what would you think would happen when they read simple verses like Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ?????? this ? You'd see spousal abuses all over the place - cause that's what a simple reading of that verse gives you.

Based on the quote you must believe that the God has done a terrible job revealing Quran and if you do not have scholars attached to Quran, it is not only not a book of guidance anymore but also looks like more a dangerous weapon.

If you do not rush into attributing naive interpretations to what I said, you see that a few posts before I explicitly suggested that Muslims share their understanding of Quran with each other. What I am opposed to is that a minority tells the majority "what the god wants", or "what the god meant in Quran", and the majority have no practical way of verifying it. If you live on the same planet earth that I live on, you should know that the majority of scholars do not backup their fetwas with arguments. And as I explained before, even if they do, it would be based on the huge pile of Hadiths that not only ordinary Muslims but also the educated ones would not have time to master (the Hadith, the context, the authenticity, ...) The follower-followed relation that Quran warns us about naturally develops in the current scholar-based Islam.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I am afraid I do not find the discussion constructive as I find many untrue things like conspiracy theorems out of nowhere attributed to my position. Anyway...

Based on the quote you must believe that the God has done a terrible job revealing Quran and if you do not have scholars attached to Quran, it is not only not a book of guidance anymore but also looks like more a dangerous weapon.

No, don't put words into my mouth please . Here is what the Qur'an states ...

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. " (Al Qur'an 3:7)

The only reason I used the term 'conspiracy theory' is because of your inherent distrust of the scholars of Islam/Hadiths. I agree there are good and bad in everything. Just like there are good usage of Internet, there can be bad usage of Internet. Similarly, some scholars will twist the Quran/Hadith to mean what they want while others will be more wise. Does that mean we give up on scholars all together ? Rather any intelligent people can choose between the right and wrong - just like we have to choose in any other matter in the world. Some will fall for the wrong, but you cannot close the channels all together for that.

If you do not rush into attributing naive interpretations to what I said, you see that a few posts before I explicitly suggested that Muslims share their understanding of Quran with each other. What I am opposed to is that a minority tells the majority "what the god wants", or "what the god meant in Quran", and the majority have no practical way of verifying it. If you live on the same planet earth that I live on, you should know that the majority of scholars do not backup their fetwas with arguments. And as I explained before, even if they do, it would be based on the huge pile of Hadiths that not only ordinary Muslims but also the educated ones would not have time to master (the Hadith, the context, the authenticity, ...)

You are saying contradictory things. On one hand, you are saying common folks are the minority and they have no way of verifying what the majority(i.e. the scholars) are saying and on the other hand, you are saying the minority(i.e. the common folks) won't have the time or ability to do it anyway. And your main contention is that since the evidences/arguments are mostly in Hadith(which there are many) so people should not follow anyone and just read the Qur'an on their own and interpret it as they want. And you think that those same common folks who doesn't have any time, interest or dedication will easily spend time reading, understanding and sharing knowledge of the Qur'an ? That even after the Qur'an itself states that only the people of understanding will understand the meaning of some verses ? Or you think everyone of those normal people will all of a sudden become people of understanding ? None of these makes any sense to me.

The follower-followed relation that Quran warns us about naturally develops in the current scholar-based Islam.

You still could not show me how the Quran warns us from following Muslim scholars in teaching Islam. Rather I have shown you how it tells a group to study so they can teach and also how only some men of understanding will understand it all.

Sorry, I apologize if I hurt your feelings - that wasn't my intention.

Peace.