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My first post

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
Hello and I hope you're well. Thank you for sharing your thread. If you don't mind, could you please just name one contention and we go over it?

I see you have a lot on your plate right now, and it's OK if you answer later. I said:

Yes, I have a contention, please see my thread here:


Koran & Hadith in plain english?

13 pages and no one replied in any meaningful way to my OP. Why?

Now, I won't burden you with reading all 13 pages of this thread, but... read my last sentence?

Shalom/Salaam
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
I have heard that putting apostates to death is there in every classical Islamic law and based on clear directives from the Hadith

If sequences of events lead the Muslim to just disbelieve and they just stop practicing without causing a ruckus, then nothing will happen to them. To think that Islam calls for the killing of people just because they disbelieve is quite absurd. Those that do hold the position will bring hadith only, because there is no such command in the Quran to kill anyone simply due to their disbelief.

When we look at the hadith, we have to consider the timeframe. During the time of the Prophet, it was a time of war and the sides were already divided. Anyone that became a Muslim at the time would take their testimony of faith and they would also take a pledge of allegiance. Anyone that would leave after that would not only be leaving Islam but rather committing treason. So thus, that is their crime.

To just take that without considering the whole notion has led a lot of Muslims to cause atrocious acts throughout history without a logical foundation. If we think about it like normal people and consider the message of Islam as a whole, then it should be clear that killing people for disbelief is illogical. We don't know what tomorrow holds and there's no reason to think that in a year, 5 years, or even more, this individual wouldn't come back to Islam, and even be a better Muslim than the one that is trying to kill them. So if they kill the person today, then they have made it a sure thing that they'll die a non-believer. and to me, that is an even bigger crime.


Another question, what makes you believe that Islam is the true religion from God rather than some other (like Jainism).

I can list some reasons if that is what you are looking for.

1. It provides a reasonable approach towards understanding the Creator compared to the rest of the religions.

2. It provides a rational approach to understanding life and our purpose.

3. It provides a comprehensive and pious approach to how people should live their lives.

4. It provides an objective approach to how societies should operate.

5. Its message is universal and suits all of humanity despite their cultural and traditional backgrounds and upbringings.

6. The man behind the message was one of the most profound individuals that history has ever known.

7. The knowledge that is indicated within the Qur'an predates their discoveries.

8. This Qur'an socially reformed an entire nation and that reform is still in effect today through those accepting its teachings on a daily basis.

9. The Qur'an is poetry and is beautiful to listen to. People have come to Islam just by being intrigued by its poetic nature.

10. The linguistic miracles of the Qur'an. (spontaneously speech cannot be perfectly coherent. Here's a reference for your kind review. "Spontaneous Spoken Language Syntax and Discourse’ by Jim Miller. (a great read)

11. Islam provides a universal and persuasive approach towards guiding humanity to God (salvation)

12. The historical integrity of the Qur'an and Muhammad's character

13. The Qur'an affirms the previous religions that don't contain independent historical findings. (ie those that hold the notion that Jesus, Abraham, and such religious figures never existed)

14. Islam calls for justice and to prevent the spreading of corruption.

15. Islam calls for taking care of the environment.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Man's interpretation and understanding is prone to error.

Only God's Messenger and those appointed by the Messenger to interpret, are free of error.

Regards Tony

True. And in Jesus we have the personification of God - a man who gave us the perfect example. A man
who rejected worldly power, turned the other cheek when insulted, who gave his life for his people as a
perfect, willing sacrifice, meek and lowly.
People can argue over religions, have debates over words - but in the Gospels there's that story which
cannot be discounted. In knowing this we are left with no excuse.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
2:98 - "Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers".

Taking ayahs out of context is one thing but taking part of an ayah is a whole different level of dishonesty. The ayah in full says

Whoever is an enemy of Allah, His angels, His messengers, Gabriel, and Michael, then ˹let them know that˺ Allah is certainly the enemy of the disbelievers. 2:98

This ayah looks a lot different now compared to what you are trying to show.

7:176, "A person who follows his own lust is like a dog: if you attack him he pants with his tongue out, and if you leave him he pants with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of people who deny Our verses [non-Muslims]".

Read from 175. I'm having difficulty seeing the issue with this ayah.

8:55, "For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the disbelievers".

Why is this the case? Because they can't keep to their word. The answer is in the next ayah. I still don't see an issue.

29:68, "And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith ['Faith' always means Islam]".

For starters, the word faith is not even in the Arabic text. This translator has only interpreted it this way. And that's what it is. Every translation is just that author's interpretation of the Arabic text. So no the word faith doesn't mean Islam here because the word isn't even there. But still, I don't see the issue yet.

48:29, "Mohamed is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves".

I think I understand now why you think these ayahs apply to all nonbelievers. Please note that the word Kafir is not just a nonbeliever, but rather a person that knows the truth and intentionally suppresses it. This is considered a Kafir.

The majority of people are looking and just because they haven't found a convincing reason to believe in Islam, that doesn't classify them as a Kafir. So we should be fair here and make the clear distinction between a non-believer and a Kafir.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Hello and I hope you're well.

I hope you know that your whole response still didn't answer why you think the Bible is a reliable source of information. But, I'll be fair and engage. :)



God had many sons in the Bible.
Adam was the son of God according to Luke 3:38.
David was the son of God and begotten! Psalms 2:7
Solomon was the son of God. Chronicles 1 17:12,13
and many more!

Paul even says that anyone that is led by the spirit of God is the son of God. (Romans 8:14) So why is Jesus only the son when we can see that there are more? This shows clear dishonesty from the Christian that wants to wiggle around these clear contradictions in their fake theology.

Son of God clearly means a term of endearment. Anyone with intellectual integrity can see this clearly.




We believe in the revelations that were given to their respected Prophets (pbut). The innovations are quite evident. Even the Christian scholars attest that there have been multiple alterations to the message.



Corruption is not only a written phenomenon but also corruption through practice and teaching. The teaching of the trinity for example is one form of corrupting a radically monotheistic message.




Yes, we believe so.
I find everything about the Bible to be reliable and convincing. This should come as no surprise, given that Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken' [John 10:35].

Even if Jesus was referring only to the Torah, Prophets and Writings, this statement [John 10:35] makes it clear that scripture is a tightly woven tapestry, and does not allow for inconsistency, corruption, or lies.

The claims made for the Bible and Qur'an are such that both cannot be God's inerrant revelation. For this reason, most Jews and Christians reject the Qur'an. For Muslims, the separation is not so easy. To call the Bible a false prophecy is also to cast doubt on many of the principal prophets of the Qur'an.

The Torah, revealed to Moses, should have been accepted by Muhammad without additions or subtractions [see Deuteronomy 12:32]. Yet, against God's clear warnings, Muhammad proclaims himself a prophet and makes changes to the Law. Where does his authority come from? Why would God make such a warning if he wanted the Law progressively altered over time? If Muhammad had been faithful to the prophecy received by Moses, he and all Muslims would follow the Law of Moses to the letter! This includes the celebration of the festivals of lsrael.

Then we have the issue of Jesus as God's 'only begotten son' [see John 1:18 and 3:18]. No other man can claim this title, for all other men are begotten of two human parents (including David and Solomon). To become a son of God 'by adoption' [see Galatians 4:4-6] one must receive the Spirit of Christ. This is why Christ is head of the spiritual body, the Church [Colossians 1:18].

As for the doctrine of the 'trinity', l think that this is best understood in terms of God coming to earth to redeem mankind. How would redemption be possible without the Son of God as our Saviour? How is atonement possible without the Holy Spirit?
 
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Come2thelight

Active Member
In scriptures father can be a biological father, or it can mean someone else who is spiritually father!
There are similar things in the Quran too.

These are not the same because The Bible is listing a lineage and both lineages don't add up nor are the names all the same, nor is the direct father the same. This is called a contradiction.

In the Quran, the person was calling out to Mary in a surprised manner, and thus used the name of Aaron because he was righteous and of their family. So this clearly shows two completely different approaches.

One is listing out the lineage
The other is a rhetorical device.

If anyone just wants to find errors in Quran or Bible they can. Do you know what I mean?

They can, but the contradiction here is quite clear. They'll have to jump through hoops to find contradictions in the Quran. Here's another one for you.

Matthew 27:5 states Judas took the money he had received for betraying Jesus, threw it down in the temple, and “went and hanged himself.”

Acts 1:18 claims Judas used the money to purchase a field and “falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

So two clear conflicting accounts. He either threw the money down or he bought a field. And he either hanged himself or fell on his head directly and gushed out his guts.

This is clear as day.

There is no contradiction if one understood the scriptures correctly.

Anyone that holds a belief and starts to see evidence that points against that belief and still chooses to believe is just delusional.

None of the Gospel authors are known and none of them are first account witnesses to the events that happened. So why trust it?

By the way, when, where and how the Bible got corrupted. If you claim this, you need to prove what, where and how that happened.

First seven ecumenical councils - Wikipedia

Check out the topics as the years went on. Clear innovation. Anyone that didn't follow their way of Christianity was killed. History tells us this quite clearly.

Again you are coming up with a reason that Allah never said that. When did Allah say, He never wanted to preserve His Book?

He says that it was entrusted to them.

We revealed the Torah with guidance and light, and the prophets, who had submitted to God, judged according to it for the Jews. So did the rabbis and the scholars in accordance with that part of God’s Scripture which they were entrusted to preserve, and to which they were witnesses. So [rabbis and scholars] do not fear people, fear Me; do not barter away My messages for a small price; those who do not judge according to what God has sent down are rejecting [God’s teachings]. 5:44

Remember, Quran days, Muhammad can be found in Bible. Notice that, nowhere in the Quran says, the Bible text was corrupted. So if you say that, you are saying something that Allah did not say!.

People can still allude to Muhammad being in the Bible today. OT & NT. So not sure what you are talking about. And not sure if I said this to you or another member, but the corruption doesn't only have to come in text form, it can be teaching and practice too.

But you are saying the Bible is corrupted, so how could they believe in Jesus correctly?

Back then it was like a game of telephone. Various ideas were going around about who Jesus was and those that held to the core monotheistic message were good to go. Those that weren't, have gone astray.

Remember the Bible says Jesus is son of God!. So, according to you, God left them with a Book that gave them false beliefs about Jesus for centuries

The Bible says that God has multiple sons. Adam, David (begotten), Solomon, Israel (firstborn), and many more! Paul says anyone that is led by the spirit of God is the son of God (Romans 8:14)
So clearly you have fallen into the deception as well. Jesus can't be the only son as we can see clearly from the Bible that there are more sons and another begotten son too! This is embarrassing honestly, please show some intellectual integrity.

What does that mean?

It means when you go and examine Mosaic law, you'll see that it is a strict law with countless things forbidden to them. Jesus clarified a lot of these malpractices and brought the believers back to true submission to God.

According to this, then if Jesus was sent to Jews only, and not Arabs, how were the Arabs guided prior to Muhammad?

There were a few that were Hunafa, which are monotheists.

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from MuAlia ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn ’Uwarma from Ali ibn Hassan from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Kathir from abu ‘bdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "People well-grounded in Knowledge stands for Amir al-Mu’minin
Ali (a.s.) and the Imams after him."

This hadith is considered weak for starters. Secondly, plain Arabic is there and the ayah is clear. Don't be amongst those that are looking into the ambiguities.

Dear, if Allah communicated with them as you are even saying, that means they were the Prophets. Even as Quran names one of them as king David!

Where does it say that Allah communicated with them? Don't get it twisted.

But notice, I'm speaking specifically about this leadership belief.

As I clearly said, Islam is not a religion for a particular group, but for everyone, having this concept of twelve leaders doesn't apply. The ayah I showed you about Moses was clear that each house from the son of Israel was a group and each group had a spring just for them.

Just because the majority of Muslims do not believe them, it does not mean they are right.

I probably would have followed each one of them honestly. Since they were of the lineage of the Prophet, then they have a special place in my heart. Something you need to understand though is that the past is the past and whatever happened then doesn't concern me in my road to salvation. They have their account with Allah and I have mine. This too is clearly taught in the Quran. (2:134)

"If you follow the majority of people on the earth, they will lead you astray from the path of God, for they follow only conjecture and surmise" 6:116

Exactly, they follow conjecture as you are doing. You ignore the plain text and stick to the ambiguities. Were you once a Christian?

In fact there are several Hadithes that the majority of Muslims are not guided to the right path:

This hadith is quite specific and a prophecy. It has nothing to do with what you are trying to portray. It is telling us that the Muslims will be in such a weak position that they will be the imitators rather than the pioneers. And this imitation will be so detrimental to ourselves to the extent that we will follow others into a hole. And the Prophet (saw) speaks the truth because we see this clearly today where Muslims have lost their identities. Just like a lot of the Jews and Christians sold out to secularism.


This ayah still applies today. And it doesn't have to mean the Arabs only, rather Islam saved countless of people since the Prophet's days. More non-Arabs than Arabs I might add.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
Maybe our messenger got lost,id like to see the evidence for "almost all of them have a core monotheistic message",i see the opposite.

Let's take Hinduism for example. A religion where the practice of multiple gods is widely accepted. Yet the Bhagavad Gita (one of their most sacred texts) we can find a core monotheistic message. For example,

Chapter 7:16-25 states;

O best amongst the Bharatas, four kinds of pious people engage in my devotion—the distressed, the seekers after knowledge, the seekers of worldly possessions, and those who are situated in knowledge.

Amongst these, I consider them to be the highest, who worship me with knowledge and are steadfastly and exclusively devoted to me. I am very dear to them and they are dear to me.

Indeed, all those who are devoted to me are indeed noble. But those in knowledge, who are of a steadfast mind, whose intellect is merged in me, and who have made me alone as their supreme goal, I consider as my very self.

After many births of spiritual practice, one who is endowed with knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be all that is. Such a great soul is indeed very rare.

Those whose knowledge has been carried away by material desires surrender to the celestial gods. Following their own nature, they worship the devatās, practicing rituals meant to propitiate these celestial personalities.

Whatever celestial form a devotee seeks to worship with faith, I steady the faith of such a devotee in that form.
Endowed with faith, the devotee worships a particular celestial god and obtains the objects of desire. But in reality, I alone arrange these benefits.

But the fruit gained by these people of little understanding is perishable. Those who worship the celestial gods go to the celestial abodes, while My devotees come to Me.

The less intelligent think that I, the Supreme Lord Shree Krishna, was formless earlier and have now assumed this personality. They do not understand the imperishable exalted nature of my personal form.

I am not manifest to everyone, being veiled by my divine Yogmaya energy. Hence, those without knowledge do not know that I am without birth and changeless.

Monotheism. Clear as day
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
Man's interpretation and understanding is prone to error.

Only God's Messenger and those appointed by the Messenger to interpret, are free of error.

So you are saying an individual can't understand the Quran's message when they read it by understanding the Morphology, semantics, and syntax of the text? If so, can you please explain why you hold this position?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If sequences of events lead the Muslim to just disbelieve and they just stop practicing without causing a ruckus, then nothing will happen to them. To think that Islam calls for the killing of people just because they disbelieve is quite absurd. Those that do hold the position will bring hadith only, because there is no such command in the Quran to kill anyone simply due to their disbelief.

When we look at the hadith, we have to consider the timeframe. During the time of the Prophet, it was a time of war and the sides were already divided. Anyone that became a Muslim at the time would take their testimony of faith and they would also take a pledge of allegiance. Anyone that would leave after that would not only be leaving Islam but rather committing treason. So thus, that is their crime.

To just take that without considering the whole notion has led a lot of Muslims to cause atrocious acts throughout history without a logical foundation. If we think about it like normal people and consider the message of Islam as a whole, then it should be clear that killing people for disbelief is illogical. We don't know what tomorrow holds and there's no reason to think that in a year, 5 years, or even more, this individual wouldn't come back to Islam, and even be a better Muslim than the one that is trying to kill them. So if they kill the person today, then they have made it a sure thing that they'll die a non-believer. and to me, that is an even bigger crime.




I can list some reasons if that is what you are looking for.

1. It provides a reasonable approach towards understanding the Creator compared to the rest of the religions.

2. It provides a rational approach to understanding life and our purpose.

3. It provides a comprehensive and pious approach to how people should live their lives.

4. It provides an objective approach to how societies should operate.

5. Its message is universal and suits all of humanity despite their cultural and traditional backgrounds and upbringings.

6. The man behind the message was one of the most profound individuals that history has ever known.

7. The knowledge that is indicated within the Qur'an predates their discoveries.

8. This Qur'an socially reformed an entire nation and that reform is still in effect today through those accepting its teachings on a daily basis.

9. The Qur'an is poetry and is beautiful to listen to. People have come to Islam just by being intrigued by its poetic nature.

10. The linguistic miracles of the Qur'an. (spontaneously speech cannot be perfectly coherent. Here's a reference for your kind review. "Spontaneous Spoken Language Syntax and Discourse’ by Jim Miller. (a great read)

11. Islam provides a universal and persuasive approach towards guiding humanity to God (salvation)

12. The historical integrity of the Qur'an and Muhammad's character

13. The Qur'an affirms the previous religions that don't contain independent historical findings. (ie those that hold the notion that Jesus, Abraham, and such religious figures never existed)

14. Islam calls for justice and to prevent the spreading of corruption.

15. Islam calls for taking care of the environment.
Regarding the point of interpretation of Hadith on apostasy, I will leave it to other members who are more well versed in that matter. However it is good that you hold a less literal view of the scriptures here.
The points that you mention about why you believe in Islam rather than other will individually require entire discussion threads. Maybe we can begin with point 1 here
" It provides a reasonable approach towards understanding the Creator compared to the rest of the religions."
Many Muslims believe that all nonbelievers are destined to eternal hell. Do you believe this (I think this interpretation comes from verses in the Quran only)? If so, can you make an argument as to why a reasonable God would condemn nonbelievers to eternal hell?
Regards
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
I find everything about the Bible to be reliable and convincing. This should come as no surprise, given that Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken' [John 10:35].

Exactly! OT says there's only one God (ie the Father). Jesus says there's only one God (ie the Father) and then all of a sudden paul says its father son and the holy spirit. all gods but one god. And Christians believe this. A clear break in the scripture and teachings from the sons of God.

For this reason, most Jews and Christians reject the Qur'an.

The Jews and the Muslims reject the NT so you aren't saying anything here. Plus the Jews and the Muslims believe God is absolutely unique, while the Christians think God reincarnated into a man. Exalted is Allah far above what people associate with Him.

To call the Bible a false prophecy is also to cast doubt on many of the principal prophets of the Qur'an.

Like what?

Where does his authority come from?

From the source of existence.


Why would God make such a warning if he wanted the Law progressively altered over time?

What warning did God make in Deuteronomy 12:32? Verse 31 tells us clearly.

You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. Deut 12:31


If Muhammad had been faithful to the prophecy received by Moses, he and all Muslims would follow the Law of Moses to the letter! This includes the celebration of the festivals of lsrael.

This is a completely new covenant. The Quran makes this clear.

Then we have the issue of Jesus as God's 'only begotten son'

My man, only you and Christians have an issue here, for us the text is clear, God had multiple sons. Even Adam should have been a greater son since he had no father and no mother so by your own standards, he should be a greater son. Yet, you'll probably just say "but adam was created" another way to wiggle out from the clear contradiction in the theology.

As for the doctrine of the 'trinity', l think that this is best understood in terms of God coming to earth to redeem mankind. How would redemption be possible without the Son of God as our Saviour? How is atonement possible without the Holy Spirit?

Why does an all-loving God need to sacrifice an innocent man just to forgive us? Why does an omnipotent God need blood in exchange for forgiveness?

Again, You still haven't told me why the Bible should be taken as a reliable source of information.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
Hello.

Many Muslims believe that all nonbelievers are destined to eternal hell. Do you believe this

No, because who is the Muslim to judge? The Muslim can also go to hell. We aren't like Christians that hold the notion "Believe and you're saved". Rather if a Muslim did faults during this life and they weren't forgiven they have to serve their time.

As for the non-Muslims, we don't know what tomorrow holds. If a person dies a non-Muslim and clearly rejects the notion of God, then why should they be forgiven? If they didn't accept God in this life, why should God accept them in the next? If they never asked to be forgiven, then why should God forgive them?

If a non-Muslim never came across Islam in their lives, they are judged based on their own actions and beliefs. Sequences of events can lead a person to believe that existence has a source. This belief can come to people without the influence of any religion. Or if they did get in contact with Islam but it wasn't taught to them correctly, then they are void from the burden of accepting.

Anyone that is intellectually honest and knows how to relinquish their ego, once they are pointed to the right Islam, they tend to believe. There have been so many people throughout history that have gone from completely hating Islam and Muslims to all of a sudden being one. Ever wonder why such a thing happens?
 

Daniel Nicholson

Blasphemous Pryme
Comments in blue

I can list some reasons if that is what you are looking for [To why Islam is the true religion from God].

1. It provides a reasonable approach towards understanding the Creator compared to the rest of the religions.
I would say that it is unreasonable to understand an original source by this process: original source > angel > illiterate man in a cave > many scribes and people who remember the words > words written down and everything compiled together in no discernable order.

2. It provides a rational approach to understanding life and our purpose. What do you think is irrational about other approaches to understanding life and purpose?

3. It provides a comprehensive and pious approach to how people should live their lives.
Perhaps it provides an approach to how people should live their lives in the 7th century

4. It provides an objective approach to how societies should operate. What is objective about it?

5. Its message is universal and suits all of humanity despite their cultural and traditional backgrounds and upbringings. This is a bold assumption. It's message is within the context of a very specific time and place.

6. The man behind the message was one of the most profound individuals that history has ever known. I think he had a lot of flaws too. We can discuss that another time

7. The knowledge that is indicated within the Qur'an predates their discoveries. There are some things it get completely wrong, for example, cosmology

8. This Qur'an socially reformed an entire nation and that reform is still in effect today through those accepting its teachings on a daily basis. Does not mean its true or from God

9. The Qur'an is poetry and is beautiful to listen to. People have come to Islam just by being intrigued by its poetic nature. Does not mean its true or from God

10. The linguistic miracles of the Qur'an. (spontaneously speech cannot be perfectly coherent. Here's a reference for your kind review. "Spontaneous Spoken Language Syntax and Discourse’ by Jim Miller. (a great read) not sure what you mean, I'll have a look at this source

11. Islam provides a universal and persuasive approach towards guiding humanity to God (salvation) persuasive by the sword in some ways

12. The historical integrity of the Qur'an and Muhammad's character it is well documented, perhaps for the time and place, and certainly better documented than some religions.

13. The Qur'an affirms the previous religions that don't contain independent historical findings. (ie those that hold the notion that Jesus, Abraham, and such religious figures never existed) affirms sure, does not prove or provide evidence

14. Islam calls for justice and to prevent the spreading of corruption. Subjective, warped to meet political and personal interests

15. Islam calls for taking care of the environment. I did not know this, how so?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello.



No, because who is the Muslim to judge? The Muslim can also go to hell. We aren't like Christians that hold the notion "Believe and you're saved". Rather if a Muslim did faults during this life and they weren't forgiven they have to serve their time.

As for the non-Muslims, we don't know what tomorrow holds. If a person dies a non-Muslim and clearly rejects the notion of God, then why should they be forgiven? If they didn't accept God in this life, why should God accept them in the next? If they never asked to be forgiven, then why should God forgive them?

If a non-Muslim never came across Islam in their lives, they are judged based on their own actions and beliefs. Sequences of events can lead a person to believe that existence has a source. This belief can come to people without the influence of any religion. Or if they did get in contact with Islam but it wasn't taught to them correctly, then they are void from the burden of accepting.

Anyone that is intellectually honest and knows how to relinquish their ego, once they are pointed to the right Islam, they tend to believe. There have been so many people throughout history that have gone from completely hating Islam and Muslims to all of a sudden being one. Ever wonder why such a thing happens?
What is not clear to me is what is it about not believing in God that requires forgiveness or needs punishment in the first place.
Second how can eternal hell be a just punishment for anyone whatsoever.
Can you clarify these two points.
Your last point is a fallacy as it is not falsifiable. If person X leaves Islam you will always say that this is because he was not actually believing or guided into true Islam. So there is always a way to explain away anything. Historically socio-political and economic dominance has been the primary factors in the spread of a religion beyond its initial formative years. Islam became a major religion in a country (including Arabia) only after (and often long after) Muslim became their rulers and created inducements for conversions including social advancements for converts and ostracization or neglect for people who remained in their old religions. This coupled with severe penalties for deconversion essentially ensured that over the centuries the older religions were given a slow death (like Zoroastrians, Arian Christians etc.) I am not singling out Islam here. All religions have done the same in greater or lesser degree.

An easy counterexample, the reason why English and Spanish are the two largest languages in the world is not because these languages are somehow more "true" than the rest. It has to do with the political and economic dominance of the West over the last 700 years.

The current growth of Islam has nothing to do with conversions but fertility rates, especially in Africa. Conversion to or from major religions is an insignificant contributor to demographic change over the last 70 years at least. I can show data to that effect easily from research made to that effect.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Peace and Blessings to all that follow the guidance.

This forum is new to me, and I hope to find individuals that demonstrate intellectual integrity and can provide a civil and fruitful discussion.

That being said, I would like to see if there is anyone that has contentions about Islam. I don't have all the answers and I'm a student of knowledge myself, however, I promise I'll do my best to provide the questioner with a satisfactory response, or the response can open the door to the exchange of ideas in a constructive manner.

I'm not here to convince anyone, because it is my belief that only God that can turn people's hearts. I'm simply here to view your contentions and hopefully, together we can clear them up.

Please name one major contention you have about Islam and we can discuss it.

Hello to you, and we hope you will set an example for intellectual integrity
 
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