My first post

[Come2thelight]

The question is why didn't god, with his supposedly timeless superior moral standards, didn't see problems with it?

You see a problem with it because you live here in this era. Where the average life expectancy isn't at the age of 40. The Quran is clear that marriage can't come until they reach the right age and are mature mentally. (4:6)

I'm judging the god who didn't feel a need to condemn it - who had to know better.

Not really, because you wouldn't have had this opinion if you lived in the 8th century. Therefore, subjective.

The quran only says they must be punished, without going into detail how.

Where does it say that homosexuals must be punished in the Quran?

The death penalty punishment comes from hadith.

The hadith you refer to is Hasan (good) but not sahih (authentic)

Hadith - Hudud - Bulugh al-Maram - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

The fact that pedophile relations / activities didn't make the "haram" list, requires an explanation imo.

Pedophile relationships are not what was happening then. You think this because you are looking at it through the lens of our current mindset.

And a 9-year old is "mentally and physically mature"? is that what you are saying?

Back then yes. No doubt. And there is no reason to believe that she was 9, to begin with. She could have been any age. But no doubt young.

 

[Come2thelight]

But they are polytheists.

So why is there a monotheistic call within their polytheistic religion?

 

[England my lionheart]

Don't take any notice of @stevecanuck He cannot teach Islam.
He take's the side of satan.

Abdullah means 'slave of G-d'.
We are proud to be slaves.

Interesting,you have slaves of slaves,slaves of allah and and their slaves of which muslim slaves are more desriable.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, there is no point in talking about revelation when we are trying to rationalize existence having a source or not.
What I mean by beginning is that do you believe that the universe started through a big bang?

Yeah, sure, there is a source and there is a reason. It could even be an 'absolute nothing' according to present-day science.
We do not know about Big Bang. That period extends from 0 second to 1x10 raised to power -43 second (that is the 'Planck's moment'). After that we know what happened fairly.

 

[England my lionheart]

So why is there a monotheistic call within their polytheistic religion?

It doesnt really mean much even if there was.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So why is there a monotheistic call within their polytheistic religion?

Hinduism has all shades of beliefs. There are polytheists, monotheists and (like me) even those who are atheists. For me what constitutes all things in the universe is 'physical energy' which is what science too says. I comprehensively reject the notion of there being any God or soul, because there is absolutely no evidence for it.

 

[Come2thelight]

"Rationalize existence"
What does that even mean? The term makes no sense.

Rationalize existence having a source or not. This is what I said. Of course, it won't make sense if you take it apart. I hold the notion that we can come to this conclusion rationally.

"Source"?
"Started"?
"Big bang"?
I dont know what YOU mean by any of this,

When I say the source of existence, I just mean that all existence comes from that source. The source is the origin of existence.

When I say started I mean that the best theory out there is that the universe was once a singularity. From that, expansion started, and over time, here we are.

 

[Come2thelight]

@Aupmanyav

It's a step process.. No point in jumping the gun... But even before that, there's no point in discussing revelation if you aren't a believer that there is a source to existence.

We need to discuss that first in my opinion.

 

[Come2thelight]

I comprehensively reject the notion of there being any God or soul, because there is absolutely no evidence for it.

The Bhagavad Gita says that there is only one God.

 

[Come2thelight]

It could even be an 'absolute nothing' according to present-day science.

What does absolute nothing mean?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You see a problem with it because you live here in this era.

Again, it's not about human standards which are bound to time era's and cultures and geographic location.
It's about "divine standards" that are supposed to be "superior" and "perfect" and "benevolent" and what-not.

Where the average life expectancy isn't at the age of 40. The Quran is clear that marriage can't come until they reach the right age and are mature mentally. (4:6)

So the quran (and thus God) considers 9-year olds to qualify as such?

Not really, because you wouldn't have had this opinion if you lived in the 8th century. Therefore, subjective.

Again: it's not about humans. It's about a timeless all knowing god.
So this timeless all knowing perfect and just god, has 8th century morals?

Where does it say that homosexuals must be punished in the Quran?

The hadith you refer to is Hasan (good) but not sahih (authentic)

Hadith - Hudud - Bulugh al-Maram - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Again, it was just an illustration of the fact that this god didn't have any problems with listing plenty of things as "haram" or otherwise.

There is no point in trying to divert attention of the main point by trying to go in on a specific example beyond what it was intended for.

So scratch it as an example if you want. There's plenty of others to choose from.

Pedophile relationships are not what was happening then.

Sexual relationships with a 9-year old aren't pedophilia?
Owkay then.

You think this because you are looking at it through the lens of our current mindset.

No. With any mindset.
Pedophilia is just the label attached to the practice of having sex with children.
It doesn't matter in what context, what era, ... It also doesn't matter if in the culture it occurs it is considered permissible or an abomination. It is still called pedophilia.

Just like owning a person as private property is slavery.
It was slavery then and it is slavery today.
Regardless of it being illegal or not.

Pedophilia is not a term of law like "murder" is.

Back then yes. No doubt

So human biological development was different then?
9-year olds had the mental and physical maturity of 17-year olds?

And there is no reason to believe that she was 9, to begin with. She could have been any age.

"any"? So she could have been 5 or 6 also?

 

[Come2thelight]

It doesnt really mean much even if there was.

On the contrary! It means a lot. It means that there is a monotheistic call within a religion that you think is polytheistic. Those who practice polytheism aren't following the true teachings according to the Gita.

 

[Audie]

Rationalize existence having a source or not. This is what I said. Of course, it won't make sense if you take it apart. I hold the notion that we can come to this conclusion rationally.



When I say the source of existence, I just mean that all existence comes from that source. The source is the origin of existence.

When I say started I mean that the best theory out there is that the universe was once a singularity. From that, expansion started, and over time, here we are.

I take it you plan to cling to " metaphysics"
as a route to knowledge.

Why you think "rationalize exidtence" is a meaningful
term remains obscure. Its better if you talk straight
rather than use strange terms that have meaning oniy
to you.

"Source" and " origin" remain unexplained.

Singularity and big bang are about a change of state, not a literal something- from- nothing.

If you are trying to use reason or physics to
demonstrate there must be a god, its not going to happen.

What are you trying to demonstrate?
Is it just that "kalam" satisfies you as being proof of
a god?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's a step process.. No point in jumping the gun... But even before that, there's no point in discussing revelation if you aren't a believer that there is a source to existence.

Of course, I believe in source and reason. See my post #824. Only that for me the source is not any God.

The Bhagavad Gita says that there is only one God.

And I differ with that. Why do you think that agreeing with BhagawadGita is necessary for me?

What does absolute nothing mean?

'Absolute Nothing' means absence of all things including the five fundamental forces of nature.

 

[England my lionheart]

On the contrary! It means a lot. It means that there is a monotheistic call within a religion that you think is polytheistic. Those who practice polytheism aren't following the true teachings according to the Gita.

Ok you have one pointer in one religion to monotheism so what?,because it is written doesnt make it true and its just one.

 

[Come2thelight]

Pedophilia is just the label attached to the
practice of having sex with children.

Pedophilia is a disorder where an adult is attracted to children. The act could be the result of this attraction, yet it is also indicated that those who have this disorder aren't attracted to older women. So how do you reconcile this when these people in the past had multiple wives and some were elderly. Like the Prophet, all his wives were elderly with the exception of Aisha.

So human biological development was different then?
9-year olds had the mental and physical maturity of 17-year olds?

Back then, once the female got her menstruation, that was her body telling the world she is ready. Today we don't understand this, but we can't deny that this was the custom then.

And mentally, there is a major difference between a 9-year-old in the 9th century compared to one in the 21st century. There's a major mentality difference between 9-year-olds in metropolitan areas compared to those in villages in 3rd world countries. The 9-year-old in the village will have a lot more responsibilities and their outlook on life will be completely different.

 

[Come2thelight]

@Audie

Never made the claim that it was something from nothing and yes, I agree that it is a change of state.

Since it went from one state to another, then it is clear that the second state (ie expanding universe) wasn't the same when it was a singularity. Would you agree?

 

[Audie]

Ok you have one pointer in one religion to monotheism so what?,because it is written doesnt make it true and its just one.

"Call within a religion" sounds fine,
but has no detectable meaning or existence.

 

[Come2thelight]

And I differ with that. Why do you think that agreeing with BhagawadGita is necessary for me?

Not you in specific but for Hinduism.

'Absolute Nothing' means absence of all things including the five fundamental forces of nature.

So if it is nothing, how can it be the source of existence?

 

[Audie]

Pedophilia is a disorder where an adult is attracted to children. The act could be the result of this attraction, yet it is also indicated that those who have this disorder aren't attracted to older women. So how do you reconcile this when these people in the past had multiple wives and some were elderly. Like the Prophet, all his wives were elderly with the exception of Aisha.




Back then, once the female got her menstruation, that was her body telling the world she is ready. Today we don't understand this, but we can't deny that this was the custom then.

And mentally, there is a major difference between a 9-year-old in the 9th century compared to one in the 21st century. There's a major mentality difference between 9-year-olds in metropolitan areas compared to those in villages in 3rd world countries. The 9-year-old in the village will have a lot more responsibilities and their outlook on life will be completely different.

You could just say thst " Allah" is into
moral relativism / situation ethics and save
a lot of words explaining things everyone knows.