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My first post

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
@Kelly of the Phoenix

Hello and sorry for the late reply.

“However, for someone who can see and understand the concept of daylight, if they say it is night, then they can’t be trusted.”

Ironically I can somewhat say the same thing about those that deny existence having an intelligent source. (Some can be trusted though).

The reality of the situation is that this physical form is nothing but atoms and that death is something certain.

The reality of the situation is that we didn’t choose anything, rather the cards were just given to us.

The reality of the situation is that we are in a state of submission to the system this intelligent source brought. A state where rebelling can lead to our demise. (ie no sleeping, no eating, etc)

The reality of the situation is that arrogant human beings throughout history have been under the ground longer than they’ve been up denying God.

The reality of the situation is that we are logical and intelligent beings that seek patterns and we can come to the rational and sound conviction that existence has an intelligent source.

When we buy anything complicated, it is expected that a manual is provided with it. It would be an even better service if technicians can come from time to time and update the program.

Since the intelligent human being can do this and expects this, why not the One that made the human being and everything they know and everything they don’t know?

“to let God say if He is offended”

Offended? What makes you think such a thing is even possible? Secondly, I specifically said that Muslims find it offensive, therefore they’re the ones offended. Not the slightest thing happens to God. No one can add or lower His glorious Majesty. Any theist that thinks otherwise lacks knowledge about their Maker.

“We must always be mindful that aggressors can claim self defense.”

I don’t see how this is relevant honestly.

“Henotheism is at best what He is describing.”

Not according to 7:22-24. He says that only those that surrender to God alone go to God after death, while those that worship other deities go to other places. He also says that it is only God that arranges the benefits, which is clear that these other deities don’t exist. So it can’t be Henotheism as you are claiming.
I don’t deny God. I just no longer see the Abrahamic ones as true. I haven’t found one yet without flaws, such as the copious amount of rose colored glasses being used.

I don’t care if theists are offended. Let God be insulted and mind your own business.

I don’t care what you think Krishna is claiming. The entire texts have Krishna meeting with other Gods. Claims have to be supported. It’s like when Jesus is called sinless and yet sins often in the story. It’s like saying Judaism was always monotheistic when even scripture edited by monotheists fail to remove all traces of polytheism.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
@TransmutingSoul

Hey Tony, I hope you’re well and sorry for the late reply.

Seems like you have been misinformed, my friend. The people during the time of the Prophet knew morphology, semantics, and syntax a lot more than the average Joe. That’s the whole point of this revelation. That an illiterate man came and spontaneously spoke in such a perfectly coherent manner that the haters went as far as to say it was magic. They called him a magician because they thought he would cast spells using these words and a lot of them attested to its beauty. So they knew very well the Arabic language.

I would like to know more about these two other messages you speak of. Enlighten me!

The Word of Allah can indeed touch our heart. There a rare few that are pure enough in heart to embrace those Messages without being educated. The greatest teachers are the Messengers.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah came for the same purpose. They came to bring humanity together in peace under our One God.

That Message can be found here.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Peace be with you, Regards Tony
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Yes, because people are under the impression that religion is the main cause of people being killed, while in reality, it isn’t. What I am advocating is that people can be messed up regardless.
To follow your thinking out to its logical conclusion:
If religion is not the cause of people being killed because people can be 'messed up' regardless, then religion is not the cause of people being moral because people can be 'not messed up' regardless.
And if that is the case then religion serves no purpose, and should stop taking up all that real estate and hogging people's lives.
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
@Jacob Samuelson

“The Enjeel and the Torah also say they would be protected.”

I would like a reference for both please, then we can discuss further.

Psalms 12: 6-7 Torah

6. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever

Matthew 5:18 Enjeel.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

My question is are these scriptures incorrect by saying the Quran is the only Word of God that would be preserved. If many people believe the Christian and Jewish Bible to be the Word of God, why would the Word of God be the most protected for the Quran and not for the Bible and the Torah, when God has said His word (Enjeel, Torah, Quran) would be preserved and protected from generation to generation.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@danieldemol

Hello Daniel and thank you for your comment. Indeed there are Muslims that go through this phenomenon every time Ramadan hits the summer. Technically they shouldn’t fast, however, the Muslim communities there follow Mecca timings.
Why do you say technically they shouldn't fast when the Quran says they should fast, from when "the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears" surah 2:187 YusufAli translation.

Is it permissible to contradict the Quran in Islam?

In my opinion.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that women are more of a possession and far from equal,they can be punished,they’re testimony in court is less than a man’s,they can only have one husband whereas men could have four,the quran does state “what your right hand possesses” which leads us to slavery and maybe that married Muslim women are slaves.

There's no maybe about it.

Verse 2:221 - "Do not marry the polytheist women, unless they come to believe (in Islam); a Muslim slave-girl is better than a polytheist woman, even though she may attract you; and do not give (your women) in marriage to polytheist men, unless they come to believe; a Muslim slave is better than a polytheist, even though he may attract you".

Ah, Islam - the religion of equality. Btw, does this not show that Muslims can actually enslave other Muslims????
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
There's no maybe about it.

Verse 2:221 - "Do not marry the polytheist women, unless they come to believe (in Islam); a Muslim slave-girl is better than a polytheist woman, even though she may attract you; and do not give (your women) in marriage to polytheist men, unless they come to believe; a Muslim slave is better than a polytheist, even though he may attract you".

Ah, Islam - the religion of equality. Btw, does this not show that Muslims can actually enslave other Muslims????

Indeed it does,maybe it’s a kind of status symbol if you have muslim slaves and the neighbours got polytheists.
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
@Sedim Haba

Are you asking for a decent Quran translation? If so, Abdel Haleem oxford is good and you can find it as a pdf.

Thank you, I will look for it. How about Hadith? A source for that?

I would imagine that Hadith is very much like the Jewish Talmud, acting
as the source for the practices that come from the teachings into daily life.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@sayak83

“Assume there are a set of scriptures that are revealed to the accomplished practioners through mystical communication or in trances. New insights may come in a continuous fashion to accomplished worshippers in this mode. So the scripture continues to grow.”

Where can we examine these continuously growing scriptures?
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@Policy

“Manifests in reality; Occupies a location and has duration.”

Since you didn’t accept my definition, then I’ll go with yours. What do you mean by having a duration and occupying a location?

“then religion is not the cause of people being moral because people can be 'not messed up' regardless”

I agree, and I never made such a claim either. There are a lot of people that don’t believe in God and they are morally better people than those that do believe in God.

Yet, that has nothing to do with religion not being needed. Islam for example is a guide for anyone that wants it. It’s not forced upon anyone nor can a person force another person to change what's in their heart.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@England my lionheart

“There have been many prophets or messengers but only in the Middle East,none here or europe or Scandinavia Russia etc,considering “we have sent a messenger to all nations”.”

India isn’t in the Middle East. We are talking about Hindu scriptures.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@Kelly of the Phoenix

“Do you consider reliance on any scripture to be idolatry? After all, we pray to God, not books.”

Why would I consider it to be idolatry?

“The Creator or Creators are just Creators. If a God didn’t create anything, They are not Creators but still Gods.”

Without birth and timeless are the keywords.

“Let God be insulted and mind your own business.”

Clearly, you misunderstood me. Why are you under the impression that God can be offended?

“ The entire texts have Krishna meeting with other Gods”

Can you reference that, please? I seemed to have missed it.

“I believe you’re confusing peace with quiet.”— Ultron”

Haha great reference. How am I confusing the two?
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@Daniel Nicholson

“How do Muslims rationalize this?”

For starters, by not judging the 7th century based on our current standards.

Secondly, could you honestly tell me that you would be the only one at that time that would speak out against this custom? Or would you probably have gotten married off early like everyone else?
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@icehorse

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I have to say though that an educated Muslim will look at the message holistically and rationally. They will never come to the conclusion to hate people simply for disbelieving. I consider myself a student of Islam and everyone is innocent until proven otherwise.

We are taught to protect ourselves in certain situations and there is nothing wrong with that. Today, people can still threaten my life, my possessions, my family, and my honor. This doesn’t happen only in the past but has probably happened to countless people as I type this message.

Concerning God hating disbelievers, interestingly, you will never see the words 'God hates disbelievers' in the Quran. Nor does it say God hates anything. Rather dislikes, or does not like.

Could you please provide me with your exegesis of surah 2 ayat 6-29? If you could go ayah by ayah that would be great, please.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
To follow your thinking out to its logical conclusion:
If religion is not the cause of people being killed because people can be 'messed up' regardless, then religion is not the cause of people being moral because people can be 'not messed up' regardless.
And if that is the case then religion serves no purpose, and should stop taking up all that real estate and hogging people's lives.

Reminds me of this clip from the Atheist Experience.
A caller was saying that a "miracle occurred" in some shooting in the US, because someone was hit with a bullet in the head and actually lived to tell the story.

So this person surviving being shot in the head, in the mind of that caller, was "evidence of god".

The reply was kind of funny: "So what do you call it when a healthy person just drops dead?"

Unexpected survival = evidence of god
Unexpected death = bad luck

:rolleyes:

The double standard of this sort of "logic" is just embarassing.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
@InvestigateTruth

“Firstly, Allah does not say such things that Previous scriptures Text are illegitimate. On the contrary He confirms them in Quran.”

He confirms the message sent initially but is also clear about the corruption that comes afterward and history proves it. Do you think that the Quran is needed for one to come to this conclusion? Do you think the ex-Christian became an Atheist because they heard what the Quran says or because they logically read the Bible and saw it to be false? I’ll go for the latter. You insisting on the former is basically you denying the reality of the situation.

“Secondly, the reason Quran was revealed is not because the Text of Bible are legitimate, but as Quran says, there was a corruption in interpreting the Bible.”

For starters, the Bible is not mentioned once in the Quran.

Secondly, you are neglecting the fact that the scriptures weren’t in the possession of the public like it is today. Christians that needed to learn stuff, they’d go to church and learn from the priest. The corruption is evident and it doesn’t have to come in textual format, although there is a mention of it in the Quran. (2:78)

“Thirdly, it is an incorrect belief to think Allah had not completed Religion when He sent Moses, or Jesus. It is irrational to think Allah would leave His work incomplete.”

I never made such a claim, nor did the Quran, nor does the Prophet in any hadith. You have been misinformed. The message was for particular people. Jesus for example says it himself that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 15:24) Christian scholars have attested that the earliest manuscripts of Mark 16 end with verse 8. This means that 9 onwards was a later addition. You really need to read up more on these things.

Can you reference the hadith you stated please for the Tafseer of surat al asr? I can’t seem to find it on sunnah.com

“the 1000 years, was period that Allah gathers Ummah of Muhammad, just as He gathered Jews, when He sent Jesus.”

For starters there were about 1600 years between Moses and Jesus, so your number of 1000 years is clearly just speculation.

“You seem to think that, when your scholars graded Hadithes, they did a correct and perfect job! How do you know that?”

They set up a fair system that is more strict than what contemporary historians follow. If there is something wrong with the methodology, please state it with your contention and we can discuss it.

“He has said whatever Hadith Quran agrees with it is a True Hadith, and whatever is not in agreement with the Quran, it is a false Hadith.”

Where does it say that in the Quran?

“David”

You have changed your position. You initially started talking about the 12 during the time of Moses. And we even talked about those ayahs with the springs. I am not denying that David wasn’t a leader. I’m specifically talking about the time of Moses.

“So, again, the question is, why do you think, in Islam there are no such Khalifs, like David? Even though several Hadithes are confirming there will be 12 Khalifs after Muhammad, yet, you think you are right”

There used to be Caliphs until the state was dismantled. And we’ve had much more than 12 since the time of the Prophet. Sometimes 4 at a time. Each claiming their own right to be there. The Prophet told us quite clearly, “We do not assign authority of ruling to those who ask for it, nor to those keen to have it.” (Bukhari 93::13)

I wonder how many of those previous Caliphs wanted it.

“But if you don't bring verses and hadithes, why do you think you are representing Islam correctly?”

What are you talking about? I’ve been referencing as much as possible. Just check our conversation. If there was something I missed, please state it and I'll reference it
 
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