Audie
Veteran Member
I dunno, seems many do worship their self styled infallibility at book - reading.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
My first post
- Thread starter Come2thelight
- Start date
I dunno, seems many do worship their self styled infallibility at book - reading.
Audie
Veteran Member
I could see sending a flood to that area
Daniel Nicholson
Blasphemous Pryme
That video was 50 scientific mistakes in the Quran, but I'd like to bring up something else.
Muhammad started having sex with one of his wives when she was only 9 years old, by Allah's grace.
On The Prophet Muhammad podcast, I've heard the following explanations
- it was okay to have sex with young girls back then
- life expectancy was shorter so you had to start everything earlier, like having sex, having children, working, etc.
- Aisha may not have known her actual age because they didn't have calendars, so she may have been 10
- the hadiths may be false, but probably not
- regardless, Allah willed it, so it is good
I think it is fundamentally wrong to have sex with a child. You are taking advantage of the child by
- using authority to get sex
- betraying their trust
- relying on their inability to make I formed decisions
... I mean I could go on and on. The psychological repercussions on child molestation is well documented.
How do Muslims rationalize this?
It's often useful - and accurate enough - to think in terms of a person having a "mind" and a "brain" that are often in conflict. From this perspective the "mind" is our consciousness, our ego, our will and intentions, and our ability to speak. The "brain" is mostly at the subconscious level. It does obvious things like keep our hearts beating, but it's also the source of much of what we think of as skill. Our ability to walk and throw and catch a ball for example are skills that exist in the subconscious brain, not the conscious mind. Most of what we learn in our lives, we learn through subconscious observation and repetition. Think of how a toddler learns to walk. We do not hand a toddler a "walking manual". They learn to walk by watching bigger people walk. Their BRAINS pick up the patterns of how to walk, and with some practice, their BRAINS learn how to instruct their bodies to walk.
Our conscious MINDS, our egos, like to think that they're in charge of our lives. But the more scientists study consciousness and cognition, the more they're learning that our subconscious BRAINS have more control than our ego MINDS like to acknowledge. The mind "think's it's all that", but it isn't. For example, think about the world of advertising, and marketing and propaganda. All of the richest people in the world, and the richest companies, spend BILLIONS of dollars every year on advertising and marketing and propaganda. They spend these billions and billions of dollars because they know that humans are susceptible to these things. So as we are exposed to ads and marketing, our MINDS might be saying "oh you can't fool me into buying your product", but our BRAINS are doing what brains do, observing the world and finding repetitive patterns and learning from them. The sad truth is that humans ARE in fact brain-washable. Advertising and propaganda work. And a key element of these approaches is high repetition, with small variations thrown in.
Now, let's apply all of this to most scripture. The folks who wrote these books centuries ago had some primitive understanding of the power of propaganda and brain-washing. (That in itself is an interesting conclusion.)
So - from a cognitive science perspective - when we look at a book like the Quran, we can see it from two perspectives:
1 - How our conscious MINDS interpret it.
2 - How our unconscious BRAINS interpret it.
The whole world of the study of scripture, theology and so on, is based on how conscious study and academic research can interpret scripture. All of the threads on this forum that are based on talking about or debating what pieces of scripture might mean, are based on what our conscious minds are doing. There's nothing wrong with that, except it's only one aspect and the other aspect - the BRAIN - is of crucial importance when looking at the consequences of humans spending time reading or hearing scripture.
So regardless of all the academic study, when the BRAIN is exposed to the Quran, it picks up the patterns. And one of the key patterns in the Quran is the message "do not trust non-believers". This is an extremely divisive message
I've had many, many debates with Muslims that boil down to some variation of the following:
I say: The Quran criticizes non-believers hundreds of times.
The Muslim says: Show me an example, and we can discuss it.
I say: Okay, how about the first third or so of the 2nd Surah.
The Muslim says: Oh, you're taking that out of context! Scholars have determined that that means something only in a certain context, blah, blah, blah.
Okay. The student of Islam is thinking only in terms of MINDS, and not considering how the readers' BRAINS are learning from the text. The reader's BRAIN is not interested in scholarly interpretations. It's learning through pattern matching, and the pattern that's repeated over and over and over again is a simple one: Allah hates non-believers, and Muslims should not trust them.
That was important 1400 years ago when the religion was just getting started. But in today's world, that distrustful orientation is a huge problem for the world. It's not just Islam, BTW, there are many popular messages in the world that promote distrust of others. They are ALL hugely problematic.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Most of whom get little to no screen time, so to speak. 12 characters are there because they represent the fascination with the mythical number of tribes. There are other apostles.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Satan personally knows God and acts badly, right?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
What sort of remembrance would satan be doing while acting badly?
ppp
Well-Known Member
People keep forgetting that,
PureX
Veteran Member
Great post! Thank you.It's often useful - and accurate enough - to think in terms of a person having a "mind" and a "brain" that are often in conflict. From this perspective the "mind" is our consciousness, our ego, our will and intentions, and our ability to speak. The "brain" is mostly at the subconscious level. It does obvious things like keep our hearts beating, but it's also the source of much of what we think of as skill. Our ability to walk and throw and catch a ball for example are skills that exist in the subconscious brain, not the conscious mind. Most of what we learn in our lives, we learn through subconscious observation and repetition. Think of how a toddler learns to walk. We do not hand a toddler a "walking manual". They learn to walk by watching bigger people walk. Their BRAINS pick up the patterns of how to walk, and with some practice, their BRAINS learn how to instruct their bodies to walk.
Our conscious MINDS, our egos, like to think that they're in charge of our lives. But the more scientists study consciousness and cognition, the more they're learning that our subconscious BRAINS have more control than our ego MINDS like to acknowledge. The mind "think's it's all that", but it isn't. For example, think about the world of advertising, and marketing and propaganda. All of the richest people in the world, and the richest companies, spend BILLIONS of dollars every year on advertising and marketing and propaganda. They spend these billions and billions of dollars because they know that humans are susceptible to these things. So as we are exposed to ads and marketing, our MINDS might be saying "oh you can't fool me into buying your product", but our BRAINS are doing what brains do, observing the world and finding repetitive patterns and learning from them. The sad truth is that humans ARE in fact brain-washable. Advertising and propaganda work. And a key element of these approaches is high repetition, with small variations thrown in.
Now, let's apply all of this to most scripture. The folks who wrote these books centuries ago had some primitive understanding of the power of propaganda and brain-washing. (That in itself is an interesting conclusion.)
So - from a cognitive science perspective - when we look at a book like the Quran, we can see it from two perspectives:
1 - How our conscious MINDS interpret it.
2 - How our unconscious BRAINS interpret it.
The whole world of the study of scripture, theology and so on, is based on how conscious study and academic research can interpret scripture. All of the threads on this forum that are based on talking about or debating what pieces of scripture might mean, are based on what our conscious minds are doing. There's nothing wrong with that, except it's only one aspect and the other aspect - the BRAIN - is of crucial importance when looking at the consequences of humans spending time reading or hearing scripture.
So regardless of all the academic study, when the BRAIN is exposed to the Quran, it picks up the patterns. And one of the key patterns in the Quran is the message "do not trust non-believers". This is an extremely divisive message
I've had many, many debates with Muslims that boil down to some variation of the following:
I say: The Quran criticizes non-believers hundreds of times.
The Muslim says: Show me an example, and we can discuss it.
I say: Okay, how about the first third or so of the 2nd Surah.
The Muslim says: Oh, you're taking that out of context! Scholars have determined that that means something only in a certain context, blah, blah, blah.
Okay. The student of Islam is thinking only in terms of MINDS, and not considering how the readers' BRAINS are learning from the text. The reader's BRAIN is not interested in scholarly interpretations. It's learning through pattern matching, and the pattern that's repeated over and over and over again is a simple one: Allah hates non-believers, and Muslims should not trust them.
That was important 1400 years ago when the religion was just getting started. But in today's world, that distrustful orientation is a huge problem for the world. It's not just Islam, BTW, there are many popular messages in the world that promote distrust of others. They are ALL hugely problematic.
Audie
Veteran Member
And the fact that atheists are underrepresented
in the criminal class proves what?
Audie
Veteran Member
Nah. Satan figured out who wrote the book.
It’s ok they had a big boat
Audie
Veteran Member
I meant now
min what way?
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
By now I would put the US as medium.
ppp
Well-Known Member
I would agree with that.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Maybe women should have had daggers.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
The US expects it.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
The Bottomline that I was trying to get with these discussions, was, I believe there is general misunderstanding in the Muslim community with regards to why Allah sent Muhammad.
From what I have seen, the majority of mainstream Muslims think, the reason Allah sent Muhammad was because, the Previous Holy Books such as Bible or Torah Text were corrupted. Then God sent the Final Messenger, and protected Quran. And thus Quran is the only Holy Book preserved and all other Holy Books Text were corrupted. For this reason, there is no need for another Holy Book after Quran (because it is preserved and Religion is complete).
There is a lot of misunderstanding with such beliefs:
Firstly, Allah does not say such things that Previous scriptures Text are illegitimate. On the contrary He confirms them in Quran.
Secondly, the reason Quran was revealed is not because the Text of Bible are legitimate, but as Quran says, there was a corruption in interpreting the Bible. Quran also says each Book of God is revealed for a period of Time.
Thirdly, it is an incorrect belief to think Allah had not completed Religion when He sent Moses, or Jesus. It is irrational to think Allah would leave His work incomplete.
Thus, the completion of Religion is not specific to Quranic revelation. Every time God sent a Messenger and a Book He had completed His Religion for the people of that Time and Age.
As regards to 1000 years lifespan of Islam, it means that this is the period that Quran was prescribed for. After this, another Book from God was to be revealed, for the same reason that, after Torah, Allah revealed Injil and after Injil Allah revealed the Quran.
Now, just as Allah in Quran says, Muhammad is in the Torah and Gospel, but most people still are unaware where He is described in those Scriptures, likewise the Quran contains Prophecies about future Messenger, but majority are unaware.
You asked me for reference about the lifespan of Islam:
The prophet [may Allah bless him] said “When my Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and when it does not keep on the right, it will have an age of half a day”. [al-Bayan, Tafsir of Surat al-‘Asr.]
In another version the Prophet said, “If my Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and if it becomes corrupt, it will have an age of half a day.” [Al-Munawi cites it in Fayd al-Qadir from Shaykh Muhyi al-Din Ibn ‘Arabi.]
Allah said in the Holy Qur’an: And one day according to Allah’s estimation is 1,000 years according to yours. (al-Hajj 22:47)
Also in another Hadith:
Amr from Shuraih bin Ubaid from Amr Bakai from Kaabul Ahbar that he said:
“The Caliphs are Twelve. When their demise approaches and a virtuous
generation comes, Allah will prolong their lives. Such has Allah promised this
Ummah. Then he recited:
وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُم فِي الْأَرْضِ كَمَا
اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ
“Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He
will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those
before them…” (Surah Nur 24:55)
He said: “Likewise did Allah, the Exalted, to the Children of Israel. It is not difficult that He may gather this Ummah in a day or half a day. And a day before your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
So, according to these Traditions, which are repeated in several Hadithes, the 1000 years, was period that Allah gathers Ummah of Muhammad, just as He gathered Jews, when He sent Jesus.
You seem to think that, when your scholars graded Hadithes, they did a correct and perfect job! How do you know that?
Allah did not ask anyone to grade Hadithes according to human fallible inventions. He has said whatever Hadith Quran agrees with it is a True Hadith, and whatever is not in agreement with the Quran, it is a false Hadith.
In this case, because the 1000 years is mentioned in the Quran, these Hadithes are authentic.
But the Muslims whenever they don't like some Hadithes, they play the game that this Hadith is weak, we cannot trust Hadithes.
As regards to David Being one the Leaders, it is in the Quran:
داود إنا جعلناك خليفة في الأرض فاحكم
"O David! Verily, We have placed you as a Khalifa (caliph) on the earth, so judge between mankind in full justice and follow not vain desire because that leads you astray against the Path of Allah. Surely, those who wander away from the Path of Allah, for them is a severe punishment, because they forgot the Day of Reckoning" 38:26
So, again, the question is, why do you think, in Islam there are no such Khalifs, like David? Even though several Hadithes are confirming there will be 12 Khalifs after Muhammad, yet, you think you are right?
See, I am just quoting Hadithes and verses of Quran. I am not making up anything. I am referring to the Souces of Islam.
But if you don't bring verses and hadithes, why do you think you are representing Islam correctly?
Last edited: