My first post

[TransmutingSoul]

Execution for apostasy is not based on any justice that i recognise. You may have different ideas

It was a law given in the 7th Century that is no longer applicable.

It is reasonable to say we have not idea what it was like to live in the 600's in Persia amongst bloodthirsty Arabian nomadic tribes, that buried girl children alive.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Why have you concluded that this word بِٱلْجِبْتِ means magic/sorcery?

From a Sunni source, Dar Almanthur collected chains to companions:

وأخرج الفريابي وسعيد بن منصور وعبد بن حميد وابن جرير وابن المنذر وابن أبي حاتم ورستة في الإيمان عن عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه قال: الجبت الساحر، والطاغوت الشيطان

وأخرج عبد بن حميد وابن جرير من طرق عن مجاهد. مثله.

وأخرج عبد بن حميد وابن أبي حاتم عن ابن عباس قال: الجبت اسم الشيطان بالحبشية، والطاغوت كهان العرب.

وأخرج عبد بن حميد عن عكرمة قال: الجبت الشيطان بلسان الحبش، والطاغوت الكاهن.

وأخرج ابن جرير عن سعيد بن جبير قال: الجبت الساحر بلسان الحبشة، والطاغوت الكاهن.

وأخرج عن أبي العالية قال: الطاغوت الساحر، والجبت الكاهن.

وأخرج عبد بن حميد وابن جرير عن قتادة قال: كنا نحدث أن الجبت شيطان، والطاغوت الكاهن.

وأخرج ابن جرير وابن أبي حاتم من طريق ليث عن مجاهد قال: الجبت كعب بن الأشرف، والطاغوت الشيطان كان في صورة إنسان.

I will post other sources after.

 

[ChristineM]

It was a law given in the 7th Century that is no longer applicable.

It is reasonable to say we have not idea what it was like to live in the 600's in Persia amongst bloodthirsty Arabian nomadic tribes, that buried girl children alive.

Regards Tony

Not applicable? Then why does it still exist in at least 10 country's?

 

[Link]

Salam @Come2thelight

It seems according to those hadiths Jibt actually means sorcerer. I was wrong, not sorcery, but sorcerer.

 

[Link]

Bro Allah says that He abolishes the distortions in these ayahs, why are you neglecting this?

Yes, but to who. To majority right now? I don't think so. The verses after show hard hearts are tried by it. So it's not abolished in all hearts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is not the teachings of Islam but it is really sad that people are like this. As I was telling another member earlier. People paint it as religion, but in reality, there is more to it.

Have you ever gone through such an experience?

I have many friends who are refugees from Iran, who have those stories to tell.

After the passing of the Messenger ( Peace be upon Him), the Message given by Muhammad, becomes the religion, (this is another topic) and in turn the religion becomes what the followers produce from that Message. The Word is not to be changed into doctrine that divides people into different sects.

“And recite (to these people) what is revealed to you of the commandment of your Lord. There is none who can change His words, and you will find no refuge apart from Him.” ( Al Quran# 18:27)

The Quran further says:

“Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe” ( Al Quran # 29:51)

That is why Allah renews religion, as men tend to change what Allah has offered in justice and mercy.

Anyway, I just hope you make yourself aware of these issues.

Regards Tony

 

[Come2thelight]

From a Sunni source, Dar Almanthur collected chains to companions:

I will post other sources after.

Aren't you advocating that the Hadiths can't be trusted and then you share a hadith?

Aren't you the one that just said that classical Arabic is enough?

So why are you going against these two statements by giving me a hadith and ignoring the meaning in classical Arabic?

 

[icehorse]

Yes if they were in an Islamic state, if not then it doesn't apply. And a second-class person would be somewhat similar to a non-national individual in the states for example.

But isn't it the case that Muslims want the entire world to be ruled by Sharia? There are HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of Muslims who hold this opinion.

Hmm.. that's a tricky one, yes it does, but not all non-Muslims. I don't have examples out of the top of my head, but if you would like to present a few and we go over them, I'd be more than happy to do that

Let me start by asking you a question. It's not meant to be insulting. Have you read the Quran?

Okay, we don't have to go far in the Quran to find examples. In the first Surah we learn that there are some non-Muslims that Allah will be angry with forever. Not an inclusive start. In the second Surah we don't have to read very far to learn how much Allah despises non-believers - even though he made them that way! We're told that non-believers are doomed because Allah can tell if they're lying. So if you were born skeptical, the way Allah made you, then when you die you are doomed to an eternity of torment. At this early stage in the book, we've also been told several times how merciful Allah is. For a non-believer, just these first two Surahs are enough for us to be saddened and skeptical.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Prophet's teachings are still around, but it is the way people interpret them which has caused the problem. Muslims and non-Muslims will take one hadith and wave it around thinking it means something, but that is not the case. Doing so is like reading a few lines from a novel and then claiming what the novel is all about. This is quite irrational

So you offer and I would agree that the quandary for a Muslim is interpretations.

As such how do you see the centuries of doctrine, much of which has been based on incorrect interpretation, can be remedied, if Allah was not to send a new Messenger?

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Aren't you advocating that the Hadiths can't be trusted and then you share a hadith?

Hadiths are often used to see what words meant by scholars because classical Arabic is NOT ENOUGH, but you have to know the dialect of the Rasool (s) which differs from classical Arabic.

This is what I'm saying, you have to see what words mean in in time of Rasool (s) and his particular dialect. Some of that is consistent with classical Arabic some of it is different, and sometimes multiple meanings are lost. I never said hadiths can't be used. I said when there is contradictory hadiths, they can't be used. Rather, which one is true needs to be seen in Quran.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Hello Ella, thank you for your question.

I do have to clarify that Allah (God) does not directly reveal Himself to anyone in a physical sense. Rather specific individuals have been selected to share the information they've received from Allah via an angel or in the case of Moses (pbuh), through direct speech. So just to be clear, Allah is always unseen. (And this is a different discussion in itself)

To tackle your question, this ties into the notion of the test that Islam holds. The Quran states that Allah created death and life to test us in our actions (67:2). Had Allah been known, then there would be no test. People would not act sincerely based upon their desires had Allah been visible as the sun. For example, a robber would not rob a bank knowing for sure they'd get caught, unless they want to get caught.

Similarly, an employee that doesn't feel like doing work will be productive if their boss is looking directly at their screen. They'll stay at it until the boss leaves. Had Allah been a fact like 2+2=4 then that would leave no room for other possibilities, and it would remove the concept of faith. One doesn't believe in facts, rather they just know them.

We also have to be real, there are a lot of people that wouldn't be able to mentally take such a phenomenon. (God or an angel communicating with them). Such a supernatural experience will need some form of strong will from the individual. From what is read, we can even see that a lot or almost all that do experience the supernatural, have expressed fear as the first impulse. So what would happen to those that aren't equipped to take the glove?

Lastly, one can make an argument that the inner dialogs that humans have could come from an angelic voice. Allah knows best.

People would not act sincerely based upon their desires had Allah been visible as the sun. For example, a robber would not rob a bank knowing for sure they'd get caught, unless they want to get caught.

That's an interesting concept. So you're basically saying that your god can only really know if non-believers are moral individuals, since all believers would refrain from robbing banks because they fear getting punished. It's only non-believers who would refrain from robbing banks simply because it's the wrong thing to do.

 

[Come2thelight]

Yes, but to who. To majority right now? I don't think so. The verses after show hard hearts are tried by it. So it's not abolished in all hearts.

My dear brother, it seems like you misunderstood these ayahs (22:52-54) and I'll give you some insight Inshalla, but because I'm going to go to bed after this, we can carry on discussing tomorrow inshalla.

The words تَمَنَّىٰٓ and أُمْنِيَّتِهِۦ are the 11th and 13th words of the text of ayah 52. This means wish. The Messengers and Prophets use to wish for probably one major thing. "I wish my people would just believe me" if they do so, their mission is over and they can go back to Allah. So the throwing that Iblis does isn't throwing a 'spell' into the wish, but rather throwing a 'monkey wrench' within that wish to disrupt it or even make it more difficult to come to light.

For example, the Prophet Muhammad (saw) wanted and wished for Abi Talib to become a Muslim, but maybe Iblis increased that waswasa to prevent such a thing from happening on Abi Talib. Or Noah (3s) wanted his son to get on the ship, but Iblis whispered to him that the mountain would be better. So these effects dishearten the Prophets and Messengers over time.

So Allah says He removes it, this is the removal of the 'wrench' after it has taken effect in the physical world and disheartened feeling within the Prophets and Messengers. And then through this removal, Allah establishes his ayat through His infinite knowledge and wisdom to the Prophets and Messengers. For example when Allah told Muhammad (saw) that he doesn't guide whom he loves, but Allah guides whom He wills. (28:56) Or when Allah told Noah that He is not your son, don't ask Me about things you don't know. ( 11:46).

Allah (swt) then says in the next ayah 53 that He causes Satan's 'wrench' to be a fitnah for those with a sick and hard hearts. For example, some could have said "He couldn't even get his own uncle to believe" and through these thoughts, they move away from belief.

As for those that are given knowledge, they'll realize the truth from their Lord by looking at this same situation and being like "SubhanAllah, this is what Allah said would happen" for example and thus their faith gets stronger.

This whole explanation can be supported by ayah 51 which talks about those that strive to oppose God's message are doing it in vain. And then Allah brings in the example of even Iblis doing this and also shows how him throwing a wrench in the Prophet's wishes is also in vain.

I hope that has cleared up this particular point.

Have a good night and talk tomorrow inshalla

 

[Link]

Salam

The Prophets and Messengers all want their people to be guided. To sabotage their mission, Satan's casts regarding what they intend and wish. This includes how they wish for people to understand the Quran.

This is not the only verse though. It was an example, that God makes clear his signs, but they aren't clear to those with a disease in their hearts or have hard hearts, rather those people will for unclarity and ambiguity pertaining to the Rasool or Nabi's wish.

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنْتُمْ بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنْكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَنْ كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ | Certainly Allah took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We raised from them twelve Captains. And Allah said, ‘I am with you! Surely, if you maintain the prayer and give the zakat and have faith in My apostles and support them and lend Allah a good loan, I will surely absolve you of your misdeeds, and I will surely admit you into gardens with streams running in them. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the right way.’ | Al-Maaida : 12

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِمْ مِيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً ۖ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ ۙ وَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ ۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَائِنَةٍ مِنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِنْهُمْ ۖ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ | Then, because of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard: they pervert words from their place, and have neglected a part of what they were reminded. You will not cease to learn of some of their treachery, excepting a few of them. Yet excuse them and forbear. Indeed Allah loves the virtuous. | Al-Maaida : 13


So we see in the past, with Musa (a) covenant with his Twelve Successors (a) that as long as bani-Israel didn't enter that door of God that he wished them to enter in, they would not understand properly.

They neglect a portion and would distort God's words from their proper context.

Then later Allah (swt) reminds again:

لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ | Certainly We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent apostles to them. Whenever an apostle brought them that which was not to their liking, they would deny a part of them, and a part they would slay. | Al-Maaida : 70

وَحَسِبُوا أَلَّا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ فَعَمُوا وَصَمُّوا ثُمَّ تَابَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ثُمَّ عَمُوا وَصَمُّوا كَثِيرٌ مِنْهُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ | They supposed there would be no testing, so they became blind and deaf. Thereafter Allah turned to them, yet [again] many of them became blind and deaf, and Allah watches what they do. | Al-Maaida : 71


So we see the covenant to Musa's (a) Successors, was such they denied them. And they took that accepting Musa (a), meant they would understand Torah and books of Prophets (a) and would not be blind to God's clear signs but this was not the case.

The verses of Surah Hajj, are speaking about all this too. Satan and his forces move against revelations and seek to make people misunderstand them especially after the founder.

The Quran talks about locks on the hearts that prevent people from properly reflecting and taking lesson from God's words. These are the knots blown upon and so sorcery of Witches and Satanic forces inwardly make people come to the falsehood outwardly.

It's the people with knowledge who see the Quran to be truth. Not the blind who might deceive themselves they believe in God and Quran and Mohammad (s) but then interpret the Quran per their desires and attribute God falsehood with no fear of God.

Allah (swt) wants Quran to contextualize itself. But he is warning those who break the covenant taken by him pertaining to the chosen ones, their hearts will harden and they will put words out of their context and move them out of their intended place in the book. This means they will not let Quran contextualize itself and it pertains to the covenant of Rasool (s).

 

[PruePhillip]

Peace and Blessings to all that follow the guidance.

This forum is new to me, and I hope to find individuals that demonstrate intellectual integrity and can provide a civil and fruitful discussion.

That being said, I would like to see if there is anyone that has contentions about Islam. I don't have all the answers and I'm a student of knowledge myself, however, I promise I'll do my best to provide the questioner with a satisfactory response, or the response can open the door to the exchange of ideas in a constructive manner.

I'm not here to convince anyone, because it is my belief that only God that can turn people's hearts. I'm simply here to view your contentions and hopefully, together we can clear them up.

Please name one major contention you have about Islam and we can discuss it.

Sure, I have contentions with the VIOLENCE and INTOLERANCE of Islam.
Whenever the word 'Islam' comes up in the news you just know it about someone being hurt in the name of Allah.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why have you concluded that this word بِٱلْجِبْتِ means magic/sorcery?




Bro Allah says that He abolishes the distortions in these ayahs, why are you neglecting this?



I get you and I understand where you are coming from now, however, bro, just because a group of Muslims have misinterpreted/misunderstood/misrepresented the Quran that doesn't mean that the teachings of the Prophet (saw) didn't reach us. Allah tells us in the Quran to obey Allah and obey the Prophet.

The Prophet's teachings are still around, but it is the way people interpret them which has caused the problem. Muslims and non-Muslims will take one hadith and wave it around thinking it means something, but that is not the case. Doing so is like reading a few lines from a novel and then claiming what the novel is all about. This is quite irrational

OK, but since there are different sects or groups of varying beliefs in Islam, does that mean they all go to heaven?

 

[YoursTrue]

Execution for apostasy is not based on any justice that i recognise. You may have different ideas

Kinda doesn't leave much room for free choice of belief. (Not necessarily speaking of action...) interesting concept.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Show me one time in history where Muslims eradicated people please.

Or forced them to become Muslims. I think you are history-blind. Mohammad's letter to King of Yemen.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Also @Aupmanyav, Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was a Messenger of Allah.

That is for Muslims (including Amhadiyyas) and Bahais. As you know, I am a strong atheist. I do not believe in either in existence of God soul, heaven, hell, reincarnation, resurrection, judgment and deliverance; or Adam, Noah, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, Bab, Bahaollah and Mirza Gholam Ahmad being connected with any God or Allah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is for Muslims (including Amhadiyyas) and Bahais. As you know, I am a strong atheist. I do not believe in either in existence of God soul, heaven, hell, reincarnation, resurrection, judgment and deliverance; or Adam, Noah, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, Bab, Bahaollah and Mirza Gholam Ahmad being connected with any God or Allah.

I understand that Aupmanyav, I thought you may wish to expand on your comment in this post.

My first post

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not applicable? Then why does it still exist in at least 10 country's?

That is because Islam still reject the new Laws given by Allah.

Regards Tony