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My first post

Come2thelight

Active Member
Bingo...

yes..

Hmmm, the human psyche is not made that way

That's me.. ;-)

It can happen, but i would think very rarely

It's not that rare, people change their minds all the time. Even when it comes to religion. A person can have faith through the roof one day and the next day they can feel like their faith is gone. This is part of the human psyche.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do you believe Iblis puts dark magic upon revelations?

For one Quran states this with respect to itself and all revelations. See Surah Hajj for example.

Also, because he has been given respite, Allah (swt) allows magic from dark forces, but also protects by his forces. So no evil can harm us from them except by his permission.

Hard hearts can't perceive Quran properly.

We have to refuge into God, Quran can't be understood except by purification of the soul.

The Quran tells us that this book has clear messages which are the cornerstone of the book, and it also has ambiguous messages, and those that are perverse at heart, seek to pin down specific meanings to the ambiguities so that they can cause trouble. (Quran 3:7) These hidden meanings and seeking them won't help us in the long run.

The hidden meanings in Quran are treasures, but must be sought with mental clarity. 3:7 forbids following anything ambiguous to the individual. Rather, everyone is to build their knowledge on what is clear signs from it. What is clear and what is ambiguous varies person to person. Another verse says for those given the knowledge, it's all clear signs.

However, for anything to become clear in Quran, it takes some degree of knowledge. But with sticking to only what is clear, it's hidden treasures become clear.

3:7 is warning us not to assume meanings when we aren't sure of them. Build up instead on certainty and what is clear signs of it.

And this other requirement. Knowledge especially of a mystic kind needs to be gained, to unlock it's keys. This is because most of Quran will remain ambiguous without that knowledge.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please name one major contention you have about Islam and we can discuss it.

I have no beef with Islam in particular. My criticism is of faith-based thinking in general (not just religious faith - I also disapprove of faith in anti-vaxxers, election hoax proclaimers, and climate science deniers, for example) and of organized, politicized religion.

As an atheist, my principle objection to these religions is the teaching that unbelievers are morally defective people. I see more immorality coming from the theists than the secular humanists, for example. Look at how nicely they have treated you so far.

Are you asking disbelievers for insults? That's what usually happens.

Congratulations. You just gratuitously insulted unbelievers on the third post of this thread. And I checked ahead. So far, this is the only post on this thread demeaning a group of people.

Thinking that encouraging people to turn away from G-d will fix mankind's tendency towards evil is deeply flawed.

I'd say that the opposite is true.

As I alluded, secular humanism - the ultimate disavowal of religion - is doing a better job with the Golden Rule than the theists are. Your posting was contentious and divisive. None of the humanists are posting like that. Are you treating people as you would like to be treated? I hope so, since I'm mirroring you. You want to tell others how turning away from God makes them worse people and the world a worse place. But I say that it is the theists that are the poor moral example. They've had millennia to make the world a better place, but it's secular humanism that did that - that gave humanity the modern liberal secular democracies in place of monarchies, science in place of superstition, and freedom of and from religion rather than theocracy as well as a host of other personal guaranteed rights and freedoms. That was a huge step in the right direction religion never made. Why would we ever want to go back to religious guidance in such matters?

Back to the Golden Rule, and why if one believes in it, he should support humanism, not the religions. While the theists in America are working as hard as they can to discriminate against LGBTQ, it is the humanists that are actually embodying the Golden Rule and treating others as they would like to be treated. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't like being called an abomination in the eyes of a good and just God that intends to torture me since I don't like it when theists tell us atheists. Nor would I like to be told that my marriage was immoral by people who get their morals from a book, or that they refuse to bake my wedding cake, so, by the Golden Rule, I don't treat others that way. It kind of flows naturally from a godless world view based on reason and empathy.

What is deeply flawed is continuing to believe that religion makes people better. There are good people in religion, but they're not good because of their religion. I like to point to Mother Teresa, who is an icon of religious goodness. But her church didn't make her a spiritual genius. It's principle influences on her mission was to teach her that suffering is good, a horrible message for the head of multiple hospices, and to take money fraudulently from donors who thought that it would be going to help the suffering, dying, poor rather than the Vatican's treasury. It a fraud that religion has answers and provide moral guidance.

Is this the kind of thing you're calling insults? I see it as a rebuttal to your comment, which I found flawed itself, and I provided what I thought was a sound counterargument. The opposite is true. Man will only make progress creating kinder people by shaking off religion - the opposite of your claim.

Can we assume that you believe that when you make your claim, it's not an insult or attack on secular worldviews, but when you see the same in reverse coming from a godless heathen, it is an attack or insult?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's not that rare, people change their minds all the time. Even when it comes to religion. A person can have faith through the roof one day and the next day they can feel like their faith is gone. This is part of the human psyche.

Not something you see every day
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not something you see every day

You are right, but is this due to human nature or due to culture combined with Satanic sorcery making people take religion as a badge you wear but really are chasing the lower world and it's life as opposed to God and the next?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You are right, but is this due to human nature or due to culture combined with Satanic sorcery making people take religion as a badge you wear but really are chasing the lower world and it's life as opposed to God and the next?

Satanic what? I would post a sarcastic meme but its not worth the trouble.

This is due to indoctrination by religion, imbibing the fear of gods wrath if they chose to move away from their god belief.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Satanic what? I would post a sarcastic meme but its not worth the trouble.

This is due to indoctrination by religion, imbibing the fear of gods wrath if they chose to move away from their god belief.

According to Quran, anyone who believes in God, God will guide his/her heart. Sincerity requirement is just having God as our highest goal. We can have sub goals in life, but he should be our goal.

True belief in God means we believe he is the highest reward and greatest goal we can have.

From my experience, most people who "believe" in God believe in him only superficially. They really equate others in worship including their desires. They don't put the effort sincerely for him nor is he their intended goal in life.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
According to Quran, anyone who believes in God, God will guide his/her heart. Sincerity requirement is just having God as our highest goal. We can have sub goals in life, but he should be our goal.

True belief in God means we believe he is the highest reward and greatest goal we can have.

From my experience, most people who "believe" in God believe in him only superficially. They really equate others in worship including their desires. They don't put the effort sincerely for him nor is he their intended goal in life.

Hmmm, this did nothing to answer my comment that
"This is due to indoctrination by religion, imbibing the fear of gods wrath if they chose to move away from their god belief."​
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can you please share the ayah?




Is that due to the magic?




Can you please reference this verse?


1.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رَسُولٍ وَلَا نَبِيٍّ إِلَّا إِذَا تَمَنَّىٰ أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَانُ فِي أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنْسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللَّهُ آيَاتِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ | We did not send any apostle or prophet before you but that when he recited/wished Satan cast in his recitation/wish. Thereat Allah nullifies whatever Satan has cast, and then Allah makes His signs clear, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. | Al-Hajj : 52

لِيَجْعَلَ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ وَالْقَاسِيَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَفِي شِقَاقٍ بَعِيدٍ | That He may make what Satan has cast in a test for those in whose hearts is a sickness and those whose hearts have hardened. Indeed the wrongdoers are steeped in extreme defiance. | Al-Hajj : 53

وَلِيَعْلَمَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَيُؤْمِنُوا بِهِ فَتُخْبِتَ لَهُ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهَادِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ | [And also for the reason] that those who have been given the knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, and so they may have faith in it, and their hearts may be humbled before Him. Indeed Allah guides those who have faith to a straight path. | Al-Hajj : 54


2.

Yes, Jibt means the sorcery/magic, and Taghut (the false idol) exists in hearts of humanity only due to magic (Jibt). The word "cast" is same as Musa (a) casting, and sorcerers casting, and so it means Satan casts regarding Quran and all revelations.

3.

بَلْ هُوَ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ فِي صُدُورِ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ ۚ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الظَّالِمُونَ | Indeed, it is clear signs in the breasts of those who have been given the knowledge, and none contests Our signs except wrongdoers. | Al-Ankaboot : 49
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hmmm, this did nothing to answer my comment that
"This is due to indoctrination by religion, imbibing the fear of gods wrath if they chose to move away from their god belief."​

To you divisions in humanity are due to indoctrination. To me, they are due to insincerity to God.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Please name one major contention you have about Islam and we can discuss it.

A bit of what I understand about Islam is that there are at least two claims that Muslims make that are foundational to the faith and completely un-revisable:

1 - The Quran is the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of god.
2 - Muhammad's life represents the perfect role model for how a Muslim ought to live their life.

Those are both extraordinary claims. Now it seems only respectful to take Muslims at their word. Many people might say things like "Oh, Muslims don't really take those claims literally." or "Well the Quran and Muhammad must be understood in the context of the time and culture they existed in". That sort of defense. To me, those sorts of defenses amount to "the soft bigotry of low expectations". In other words, defenses like that are condescending to Muslims.

I've read several translations of the Quran, and I've read several biographies of Muhammad. If we assume the two foundational claims I mentioned above when we read these books, then the most logical, consistent, and parsimonious conclusion is that Islam is a religion of conquest, with the goal of world domination, by force if necessary, and that Islam teaches Muslims to be in contempt of all "others".

With all of that said as context, my contention with Islam is this:

Having discussed Islam with Muslims for many years on this and other forums, Muslims almost always claim that Islam is not violent or divisive, and that their foundational claims must be taken as sacrosanct.

How do you make sense of these logical inconsistencies?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Please name one major contention you have about Islam and we can discuss it.

Not contentions, but questions
What separates the different factions in Islam, the Sunnis and the Shiites?
Why do we not hear more from Islamic scholars about Islam being a religion of peace?
Do you believe that true Islam has been hi-jacked or corrupted by extremism?
Sorry, this is more than one question.
 

Come2thelight

Active Member
As an atheist, my principle objection to these religions is the teaching that unbelievers are morally defective people. I see more immorality coming from the theists than the secular humanists, for example. Look at how nicely they have treated you so far.

Hello and thank you for your comment. Please understand that everyone is taught differently and we are just products of our environment and sequences of events.

Yes, Islam gives preference to those that have submitted themselves to the source of existence, but it is not true to say that just because x is a believer this automatically means they are more moral than y because they aren't a believer. This is completely illogical and just shows the prejudice that people hold. (religious and non-religious folks).

Rather the Quran tells us that we were made into nations and tribes so that we can get to know one another.

O humanity! Indeed, We created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes so that you may get to know one another. Surely the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous among you. Allah is truly All-Knowing, All-Aware. 49:13

We are to embrace our differences and this isn't happening today. Even between people within the same religious group, there's a form of disunity.

So I don't think it is fair to pin religion on what people have misunderstood for x reason. But I do understand why you hold this notion. People discriminate all the time, and an easy form of ammo is religion, like skin color, and so forth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thank you for showing me the way!!



I never said they weren't. Everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise.

They are? How exactly are you using the idea that "everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise." Innocent? How is "everyone innocent." I read through many comments and finally stopped on this one. Please explain, either according to your beliefs (ideas) or according to Islam, if you will, how "everyone is innocent," please clarify. Thanks.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And honestly, it has been hard for a lot of Muslims no doubt, but the propaganda has also made people curious, and a lot have come to Islam, once they decide to read more up on it from objective sources. They come to realize that the Quran isn't a book that promotes violence, but rather self-defense....
Wouldn't they also have to believe that the angel gave Muhammad different (contradictory) information from what the Bible says?
 
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