My first post

[ChristineM]

I never said they weren't. Everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise

I understood leaving islam automatically made the person guilty of apostasy.

There is nothing in Islam that allows this.

And yet a small percentage of muslims interpret their actions of terror as being fully in line with the Qur'an.

Not necessarily, but because a lot of their extremist beliefs can be proven to be false

False in who's eyes?

Indeed everyone is a product of sequences of events. If a person held a certain belief and saw evidence that goes against their belief, a sincere individual will eventually give up that belief, right? The one that sees the evidence against their belief and they still continue to believe, could be called delusional. Does that seem reasonable

I do know of many delusional people.

On the flipside. If one has a certain belief, and they see evidence that supports their belief, wouldn't it be rational to say that the belief will eventually be upgraded into conviction as more evidence is presented to support that belief?

Of course, will it happen though?

 

[Come2thelight]

I understood leaving islam automatically made the person guilty of apostasy.

There is nothing in Islam that calls for the killing of a person simply because they disbelieve. This is a major misconception, nor does it make sense honestly. During the Prophet's time, anyone that joined the Muslims in Madina also took a pledge of allegiance. This was due to the war between the Muslims and the Pagan Arabs. Anyone that broke this pledge would be considered an apostate, but in reality, they were committing treason.

The idea that Muslims can kill someone because they simply left Islam is absurd. Muslims believe that tomorrow is unknown and there is no reason to conclude that this "ex-Muslim" couldn't come back to belief in 5 years, 10 years, etc and maybe they'll be even better Muslims than the ones that are persecuting them. But if they kill the individual today, they have made it definite that they'll never be a Muslim tomorrow and that is a major fault.

And yet a small percentage of muslims interpret their actions of terror as being fully in line with the Qur'an.

When we examine these situations more carefully, we can see that the Muslims that follow such a sick ideology aren't educated on the matter at all, rather just taking the word of some sadistic individual and never doing their own validation of what is being said.

False in who's eyes?

If the person is sincere, they'll see the faults in their own beliefs. It has been pointed out to many who have changed their positions. Some find it hard due to their ego and the circumstances of life, but in general, a lot of educated Muslims are quick to correct themselves of wrong teachings especially if they are presented with the Quran.

 

[ChristineM]

There is nothing in Islam that calls for the killing of a person simply because they disbelieve.

Interesting, yet still it happens, therebare at least 10 country's that have the death penalty for apostasy.

When we examine these situations more carefully, we can see that the Muslims that follow such a sick ideology aren't educated on the matter at all, rather just taking the word of some sadistic individual and never doing their own validation of what is being said.

I realise it is not the typical Muslim way, nevertheless it is a segment of islam that exists. And there are anough Imams around teaching such rubbish to poorly educated people make it problem that concerns the world.

If the person is sincere, they'll see the faults in their own beliefs

This i don't see, have never seen.

a lot of educated Muslims are quick to correct themselves of wrong teachings especially if they are presented with the Quran

Again I can't say i have seen or heard of this happening

 

[Come2thelight]

Interesting, yet still it happens, therebare at least 10 country's that have the death penalty for apostasy.

These countries don't follow Islam but follow their own version of it, that's why each country has its own laws (some countries are more lenient than others, etc). Islam is one and the rules in Islam are one.

I realise it is not the typical Muslim way, nevertheless it is a segment of islam that exists. And there are anough Imams around teaching such rubbish to poorly educated people make it problem that concerns the world.

The fault is on the poorly educated people honestly because all they have to do is check, but they'd rather be sheep. This to me is a bigger fault. Islam teaches that seeking knowledge is a duty on all Muslims.

This i don't see, have never seen.

Again I can't say i have seen this happen

You've never seen a person correct themselves or you've never seen a Muslim correct themselves? There are so many examples you can find online where Muslims have corrected other Muslims. I've personally corrected Muslims and they've accepted. Some as I said, couldn't let go of their egos. I too have been corrected once upon a time for holding an incorrect belief. Are we allowed to share links on this site? If so, I can direct you to a conversation about apostasy where two Muslims talk about it and one corrects the other.

 

[Link]

Salam

I believe in Mohammad (s) and Quran, but I can't claim to really believe in Islam until it's fully presented by Imam Mahdi (a). Till then, I know some of it but not most of it, and can even be mistaken in what I think I know from it.

I don't believe slavery was ever allowed in the Quran or ever by God from Adam (a) till now. This is why I believe for example Sarah (a) is the true mother of Ismail (a) and why Quran doesn't mention the slave Hagar and jealousy story (although mind you hadiths do).

I have found hadiths to support this notion in Shiite sources. My question, to you, is do you believe that slavery was ever allowed by God and if so why?

 

[Link]

Salam

Here's a thread that might interest you: Did God ever command to slavery per Quran? | Religious Forums

 

[ChristineM]

The fault is on the poorly educated people

You cannot blame the poorly educated for their poor education. Also the fact that they are poorly educated is the very reason they don't know how to question and research.

You've never seen a person correct themselves or you've never seen a Muslim correct themselves?

Oh I I've corrected myself and been corrected often enough, i have even dropped my religion because i learned of the hypocrisy that was rife in it.

However once that faith is set i have never seen a change of that faith or an change of an aspect of faith brought about by words. There are examples of my meaning throughout this forum

 

[Come2thelight]

Salam

I believe in Mohammad (s) and Quran, but I can't claim to really believe in Islam until it's fully presented by Imam Mahdi (a). Till then, I know some of it but not most of it, and can even be mistaken in what I think I know from it.

I don't believe slavery was ever allowed in the Quran or ever by God from Adam (a) till now. This is why I believe for example Sarah (a) is the true mother of Ismail (a) and why Quran doesn't mention the slave Hagar and jealousy story (although mind you hadiths do).

I have found hadiths to support this notion in Shiite sources. My question, to you, is do you believe that slavery was ever allowed by God and if so why?

Salam Alaikom Brother,

I hope you are well. You have said a lot there bro. Would you mind if I address those points before we get to the slavery part?

For starters, why do you think Imam Mahdi will give us a different version of Islam than what Rasool Allah (saw) gave?

Secondly, why do you think the Quran has been changed? I'm assuming you think this because you said that slavery was never allowed in the Quran, and when I look in the Quran I see that there are verses that talk about slavery. So this would mean it was added after the Prophet? Is this what you mean?

Please feel free to say whatever you'd like. I won't take any offense akhi

 

[Link]

Salam

I believe Quran is not distorted in words, but in meaning, both at manifest original revelation level (tanzil) and furthermore the end intended meanings (taweel). So the Arabic words are intact.

If you read the thread, most of the slavery concept comes from "malakat aymanihum" but I believe that's about marriage and Muta, and as marriage is usually mentioned with it it usually refers to Muta. In the Muta verse, however, it refers to marriage, and then Muta is presented as the second form of it.

This is why it's very good to assume one doesn't really know Quran and Sunnah. It's better to assume we maybe wrong in a lot about it.

I believe that Mohammad (s) brought original Islam, but it got distorted over time. His Sunnah and meaning of Quran is severely distorted right now.

 

[sun rise]

Welcome to RF. You should note that there are Muslims here already, both Sunni and Shi'a, some very well versed in the Quran and ahadith indeed.

 

[Link]

Salam

Also, hadiths can't be used as evidence if there are contradictory ahadith. For example, in mizan al-hikma, I found this treasure:

Imam Ali (a) said:

"Adam never beget a slave man nor slave woman and all people are free"


And so we have to investigate Quran and see which hadiths are true.

 

[Come2thelight]

You cannot blame the poorly educated for their poor education. Also the fact that they are poorly educated is the very reason they don't know how to question and research.

This is not an excuse if they are Muslims. When I say it is a duty, I mean it is literally obligatory. If they've never been brought up to know this teaching as Muslims then the fault is on their parents/teachers and they're exempted from it.

Yet, from what has been witnessed, people tend to follow what is convenient. Doing work like research is not convenient and thus people won't make the effort. And this goes to the civilized, educated, materialistic, and secular people too. They also don't want to do their research. People will take things at face value even if it is misinformation. The celebrity said it, then it must be true!

However once that faith is set i have never seen a change of that faith or an change of an aspect of faith brought about by words. There are examples of my meaning throughout this forum

Change of faith and changing an aspect in a person's faith aren't the same. One is definitely more drastic than the other for the individual. If the person is a sincere seeker of truth, then changing their minds shouldn't be something odd.

Concerning changing of faith by mere words is definitely not something that happens usually, nor is that what I implied. This would be more towards sequences of events within a person's life that bring them to belief or disbelief. Experience etc.

In contrast; A person can be affected by words but they've already reached a position where they're on the edge and coincidently the person they are talking to happens to say the right things.

 

[Come2thelight]

I believe Quran is not distorted in words, but in meaning, both at manifest original revelation level (tanzil) and furthermore the end intended meanings (taweel). So the Arabic words are intact.

So brother, if the words of the Quran aren't changed, but only the meanings have been changed in the Hadiths, does that mean a person can know the meaning of the Quran through understanding Arabic and its grammar?

 

[Come2thelight]

Welcome to RF. You should note that there are Muslims here already, both Sunni and Shi'a, some very well versed in the Quran and ahadith indeed.

Good to know! Always great to have family support

Thank you for the welcoming. Much appreciated

 

[Link]

So brother, if the words of the Quran aren't changed, but only the meanings have been changed in the Hadiths, does that mean a person can know the meaning of the Quran through understanding Arabic and its grammar?

Yes, but he has to research classical Arabic of the Rasool's (s) time. What words meant then, not only now.

Also, he/she needs to keep in mind Iblis always puts a dark magic upon revelations and words of a Rasool and their wish and intended meaning behind their words gets distorted through sorcery of Iblis.

Satanic forces also don't just watch a chosen one bring a revelation, but seek to fabricate lies against the founder and do their best to distort. This is why all revelations in the past were distorted.

Quranic words are intact, but it's still under attack and locks are placed with respect to key meanings in it. Those key meanings are required to open to up other doors to Quran, and so, there is sorcery at all levels to distort the meaning.

And so to see true meaning, more then thinking, it requires we combat dark magic and take refuge through God's perfect words and names into his asylum and light.

 

[ChristineM]

If they've never been brought up to know this teaching as Muslims then the fault is on their parents/teachers

Bingo...

People will take things at face value even if it is misinformation.

yes..

shouldn't be something odd.

Hmmm, the human psyche is not made that way

This would be more towards sequences of events within a person's life that bring them to belief or disbelief. Experience etc.

That's me.. ;-)

In contrast; A person can be affected by words but they've already reached a position where they're on the edge and coincidently the person they are talking to happens to say the right things.

It can happen, but i would think very rarely

 

[ChristineM]

Welcome to RF. You should note that there are Muslims here already, both Sunni and Shi'a, some very well versed in the Quran and ahadith indeed.

Good to know! Always great to have family support

Thank you for the welcoming. Much appreciated

And a Sufi.

 

[Link]

And a Sufi.

A Shia, a Quranist, and Sufi walk into a bar. They look at each other then they say it's haram. They celebrate and say finally we agree on something.

 

[ChristineM]

A Shia, a Quranist, and Sufi walk into a bar. They look at each other then they say it's haram. They celebrate and say finally we agree on something.

I've been on RF too long, i actually got that..;-)

 

[Come2thelight]

Ok, again you said a lot there bro. Let me break this down for a second.

Yes, but he has to research classical Arabic of the Rasool's (s) time. What words meant then, not only now.

So when they do that, they're good? Basically morphology, semantics, and syntax. Correct?

Also, he/she needs to keep in mind Iblis always puts a dark magic upon revelations and words of a Rasool and their wish and intended meaning behind their words gets distorted through sorcery of Iblis.

Why do you believe Iblis puts dark magic upon revelations?

Satanic forces also don't just watch a chosen one bring a revelation, but seek to fabricate lies against the founder and do their best to distort. This is why all revelations in the past were distorted.

Allah never promised to preserve the past messages because they weren't meant to last because they weren't sent to all of humanity. While Allah promised to preserve this message because it is supposed to last and it is supposed to be for all humanity until the end. So why do you think that Allah has not preserved this message when He promised He would? (Words and meanings preservation)

Those key meanings are open to up other doors to Quran, and so, there is sorcery at all levels to distort the meaning.

This notion seems quite contradictory to what the Quran teaches bro. The Quran tells us that this book has clear messages which are the cornerstone of the book, and it also has ambiguous messages, and those that are perverse at heart, seek to pin down specific meanings to the ambiguities so that they can cause trouble. (Quran 3:7) These hidden meanings and seeking them won't help us in the long run.