My first post

[Come2thelight]

@stevecanuck

Hello, and I hope you're well.

“Do you really think they deserved that fate?”

I don’t know. I wasn’t there nor could I state my opinion. From face value, it seems like they did break the treaty and there were others that were just guilty by association. They asked for someone within their own tribe to pass the judgment and they accepted Sa’d to be that person. Either way, it is absolutely critical for us to establish if these people broke the treaty or not.

I don’t understand your point about the fasaad. How did I leave it out? And from the text it is clear. The first offense comes from those that wage war against God. The word min (whoever) in the Arabic text is conditional. The condition is those who wage war first.

And the Falun Gong directly spoke against the communist government and had their own political ideologies, this is a big reason why these persecutions occurred. While the same can’t be said for the minority Muslim population in China. There is actually no comparison in how these persecutions are being conducted.

Concerning Asia, I don’t think she deserves to be killed and anyone that thinks otherwise is just insecure in their own faith and doesn’t understand the overall message of Islam. I thought I made my views clear on this.

Concerning the ayah, you posted 35:39. I don’t see the point you are trying to make honestly. And again, not once will you see Allah saying that He hates particular people. Such an emotion isn’t even befitting to Allah.

Concerning ayah 65:4. This doesn’t have to mean children. It could easily mean women that have amenorrhea. Not a single contemporary scholar will agree that this gives permission for men to marry children. They have to be mentally and physically mature. What people do is something else. There are those that are misguided.

 

[Come2thelight]

@joelr

Hello, and I hope you're well.

Can you please show me in the bible where Paul sees Jesus more than once?

And I don’t think they were epileptic seizures. This is what the orientalists say.

The reason I believe Muhammad is due to many reasons, and we can go through them all. My first reason would be the simplicity of the message. (Serve the Creator by serving life).

 

[Audie]

Hey @Audie , I hope you're well.

“That is NOT what "a call" means.”

Yes, it does; an invitation to such a practice. It's there in the text.

And the bible is way more monotheistic. What are you talking about? Only Paul and maybe John start to butcher it. But as a whole, the dominant message is monotheistic. The proof of that is that I can definitely provide you with more verses that point to monotheism compared to you showing verses that point to polytheism.

And why does the concept of a Creator seem irrational?

Weve seen the game of dueling verses.

The Bible and no doubt your koran can provide a verse for whatever you want.

If you cannot detect irrationality i doubr i could
successfully point it out, esp to one who announces nothing can change his mind.
Im just saying what i think of your religion.

 

[Come2thelight]

@danieldemol

Hello, and I hope you're well.

“Where in the Quran does it say that a Muslim may feed a needy person or make up the days at a later period due to inability to distinguish those periods.”

2:183 and 184 give the conditions of one not being able to fast on particular days, they can do other things to compensate for it. There’s no reason to reject the idea that fasting over a certain amount of hours can’t be harmful, this is why scholars allow those in such countries to fast at different timings. People shouldn’t be overburdened by their religion. It is a way to ease our lives and not to make it difficult as the Quran states. 2:185

 

[Come2thelight]

Weve seen the game of dueling verses.

The Bible and no doubt your koran can provide a verse for whatever you want.

You'll never find an explicit verse in the bible that points to polytheism. Try and test your own claim.

And when did I tell you that I'll never change my mind?

 

[Come2thelight]

@Muffled

Hello, and I hope you're well and thank you for your comment.

“I believe I have no contentions. Islam is what God intended it to be: an alternative to Judaism but it does not provide salvation as Christianity does.”

Yes, we believe that God is so loving and merciful to the extent that He can forgive us without the killing of an innocent man. Why does an All-Loving God need blood in exchange for forgiveness?

 

[Come2thelight]

***Notice to All***

If there was any comment I missed, please let me know!

 

[icehorse]

Hello, and I hope you’re well.

Now I definitely know why you find the Quran evil if that’s all those ayahs said to you. I wanted you to go ayah by ayah and you jumbled up 7-20 while I specifically asked for 6-29 and each ayah independently. Would you like to take another crack at it? Because what you brought was not even elementary. If you don’t want to, just state it and that will be fine too. Quite a disappointing attempt though.

You're approaching these verses with your academic, scholarly MIND. I believe that what your MIND thinks about these verses has been heavily influenced by many, many, Islamic scholars, perhaps spanning many centuries. This is the domain of theology, and as I've said, theology is a fine way to spend one's time.

But I'M looking at the verses from the perspective of the BRAIN. The BRAIN is mostly unswayed by what the MIND thinks. I understand that this idea of a MIND / BRAIN division takes some getting used to, but it's extremely important for people to start to understand this division. To ignore the MIND / BRAIN division is to set yourself up to be easily manipulated.

==

With all of that said, if you want to share how theologists interpret these verses, I'd be happy to hear it. But again, that discussion would be in the realm of our MINDS, not our BRAINS. And even though our MINDS think they are in charge, our BRAINS are far more in charge of our lives than our egos like to admit.

 

[Audie]

You'll never find an explicit verse in the bible that points to polytheism. Try and test your own claim.

And when did I tell you that I'll never change my mind?

Just never mind.
Both things are made abundantly clear.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You said that there were people that called the words of Bab and Baha’u’llah magic. What historical accounts do you have concerning this? (I’m not denying it, just curious to learn more)

I read of these accounts in the "Dawnbreakers".

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation

One story is of Siyyid Yahyay-i-Darabi on page 172 to 177 told by himself.

Starting on page 171 when the Shah wanted to determine the truth about all the reports coming to him about the Bab.

"...Muhammad Shah(1) himself was moved to ascertain the veracity of these reports and to enquire into their nature. He delegated Siyyid Yahyay-i-Darabi,(2) the most learned, the most eloquent, and the most influential of his subjects, to interview the Bab and to report to him the results of his investigations. The Shah had implicit confidence in his impartiality, in his competence and profound spiritual insight. He occupied a position of such pre-eminence among the leading figures in Persia that at whatever meeting he happened to be present, no matter how great the number of the ecclesiastical leaders who attended it, he was invariably its chief speaker. None would dare to assert his views in his presence. They all reverently observed silence before him; all testified to his sagacity, his unsurpassed knowledge and mature wisdom...."

Then the story is told by Siyyid Yahyay-i-Darabi

Spoiler: Siyyid Yahyay-i-Darabi

THE DAWN-BREAKERS---Chapter IX

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you aware that Arabic grammar came from the Quran? If so, then how can it contain incorrect grammar? There have been some incidences where the listener would wonder about certain words that seemed foreign to them. Like Al Rahmaan for example.

I have only read of these issues in the past, what they accused Muhammad of. I am no expert. I would need to find where I did read of those accusations against Muhammad, it may very well be in the Baha'i Writings.

Regards Tony

 

[Come2thelight]

You're approaching these verses with your academic, scholarly MIND. I believe that what your MIND thinks about these verses has been heavily influenced by many, many, Islamic scholars, perhaps spanning many centuries. This is the domain of theology, and as I've said, theology is a fine way to spend one's time.

But I'M looking at the verses from the perspective of the BRAIN. The BRAIN is mostly unswayed by what the MIND thinks. I understand that this idea of a MIND / BRAIN division takes some getting used to, but it's extremely important for people to start to understand this division. To ignore the MIND / BRAIN division is to set yourself up to be easily manipulated.

==

With all of that said, if you want to share how theologists interpret these verses, I'd be happy to hear it. But again, that discussion would be in the realm of our MINDS, not our BRAINS. And even though our MINDS think they are in charge, our BRAINS are far more in charge of our lives than our egos like to admit.

I'm reading them under the linguistic microscope. Through morphology, semantics, and syntax. This is how I read it. If you aren't interested in doing the exegesis of the ayahs, then there's no point in boring you with mine.

 

[Come2thelight]

Just never mind.
Both things are made abundantly clear.

Fine by me Take care and thanks for chatting

 

[Come2thelight]

@TransmutingSoul

Thank you for sharing the reference.

Here's a question for you Tony. If Sayyed Ali Muhammad Shirazi aka Bab wasn't of Ismaili origin, do you think this would have happened? Because he and even Bahaullah heavily depend on ambiguities in the Quran. While Allah makes it clear that those that do that aren't following truth, but conjucture.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you reconcile surah 2 ayahs 2-5 according to your Prophet’s teaching? To me, it gives characteristics of those with taqwa. One of those characteristics is to believe in what was revealed to Muhammad and what was revealed before him. There is no mention of believing in anything that is after. So why have you neglected this or what is your explanation for this?

Quote

(2:2) This is the Book of Allah, there is no doubt in it;2 it is a guidance for the pious,3 (2:3) for those who believe in the existence of that which is beyond the reach of perception,4 who establish Prayer5 and spend out of what We have provided them,6 (2:4) who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you,7 and have firm faith in the Hereafter.8 (2:5) Such are on true guidance from their Lord; such are the truly successful.

2 Yes the Word of Allah, a sure guide.
3 This verse tells me that it is a sure guide to our spiritual capacity, practice of the law, 5o live and share the Faith.
4 this verse tells me to believe in the Book and also what came before from Allah and have firm faith in the eternal kingdom of Allah.
5 this verse tells me that this is true path to submission to Allah.

There are many translations. I would also have to look at other translations to confirm what those verses mean to me.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@TransmutingSoul

Thank you for sharing the reference.

Here's a question for you Tony. If Sayyed Ali Muhammad Shirazi aka Bab wasn't of Ismaili origin, do you think this would have happened? Because he and even Bahaullah heavily depend on ambiguities in the Quran. While Allah makes it clear that those that do that aren't following truth, but conjucture.

I think it happens as Allah so wills? So as it has happened, the only judgement I can make is to what was offered by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

So for me, Allah has fulfilled what was promised in all past scriptures, in the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

A question for you. Why do you see the Baha'i Faith is established in the Holy Land on Mount Carmel, given the effort of Islam to extinguish the Babi and then Bahai Faiths, who else can achieve this, but Allah?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you for sharing the reference.

Thank you for reading the story, if you so choose to.

This story is told by a person who was known for his vast knowledge of Islam and the Quran, so much so that the Shah appointed him to sort out who the Bab was.

Many do not read these links, they have a fear that they too may fall under the spell, so I am wondering if you did read the story? It actually starts at the beginning of that link.

Regards Tony

 

[stevecanuck]

@Muffled

Hello, and I hope you're well and thank you for your comment.

“I believe I have no contentions. Islam is what God intended it to be: an alternative to Judaism but it does not provide salvation as Christianity does.”

Yes, we believe that God is so loving and merciful to the extent that He can forgive us without the killing of an innocent man. Why does an All-Loving God need blood in exchange for forgiveness?

Verse 9:111 answers that explicitly. It says God will grant heaven to those who "kill and are killed". No matter how hard you try to massage that message to mean something else, you simply can not.

Sahih International: Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

Pickthall: Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

Yusuf Ali: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Shakir: Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.

Muhammad Sarwar: God has purchased the souls and property of the believers in exchange for Paradise. They fight for the cause of God to destroy His enemies and to sacrifice themselves. This is a true promise which He has revealed in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran. No one is more true to His promise than God. Let this bargain be glad news for them. This is indeed the supreme triumph.

Mohsin Khan: Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Quran. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success.

Arberry: God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Verse 9:111 answers that explicitly. It says God will grant heaven to those who "kill and are killed". No matter how hard you try to massage that message to mean something else, you simply can not.

Yes. No matter how much Muslims want decency and peace, there will always be those who have the opposite agenda.

"Mankind is violent in his love of wealth"

We only have to see what's going on in Eastern Europe at the moment, to witness that.
"military technical measures", otherwise known as the goose-step, designed to bully and threaten.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes. No matter how much Muslims want decency and peace, there will always be those who have the opposite agenda.

I see you're still pretending that 9:111 is referring exclusively to defensive actions. Please tell us the defensive imperative that took a Muslim army to France in 732. And later to India where they killed millions of Hindus in 'self defense'.