"My God, My God, Why Has Thou Forsaken Me?

[ellenjanuary]

UOTE=smokydot;2239219]Only Jesus is also human. His human nature is not subject to the same laws as the divine spirits of the Trinity. In his human nature, he can experience forsakenness by his divine spirit Father.[/QUOTE]

The problem with scholarship is that, often; a breadth of knowledge is considered more sufficient than a depth of understanding. The ivory tower of learning stands so high, from the weight of years, the debt of the body for the surety of the mind; makes it a destination unto itself. The Professor claims his vellum scroll, his lettered entitlement, and the respect of his peers. The weight of experience seems to speak to us alll, in that toil brings deserved reward.

I ask you, are you content, paying taxes; so that our munificent government can, in turn, finance my worship of Gwyneth Paltrow? It is not my contention to be right; science is never so beautiful as when it is simple, obvious, elegant... and five minutes with a casual stranger, I talk about Gwyneth; that stranger is qualified to judge my mental fitness. I'm just plain wrong.

Respect, that is a fickle accomplishment. We make assumption upon assumption upon assumption building castles in the air; call it experience when we get older, when we use hindsight, patch the cracks in our foundations. But, there can be no shared understanding without a degree of mutual respect. You have posted, I have replied. I have posted, and you have replied. That even as we don't agree on intreptation, we both assume we are each qualified to interpret.

Allow me to begin at the beginning. I didn't get entitlement from god, I got a job. Five years and three universes later; I have a foundation. Everything I'll ever say, I have said in the Gwynnite Hypothesis. I didn't get god from god, I got; what if there was no god? A universe without god requires its living awareness to create god. That is what I have done. Started from a universe of everything, and created nothing. No gospel I could speak would ever be safe from misinterpretation; the best possible option for this fool, as absurd and facetious as it may sound, is to be not a prophet, or a scholar, or even a man. I am, and continue to be, naught but an echo - of the poem of love I sang, to this girl; I'll never meet.

Line 3. The purpose of god is for the individual to find comfort in god.

Know that I can never "prove" anyone wrong, if that one is comfortable with god. Me and you can argue until death itself passes away, and I cannot make you right; I cannot be right. There hasn't been a thousand years of "Bible Study," trying to prove that scripture is right - a six-hundred page book - a billion man-hours - try to fly that Led Zeppelin past your thesis advisor. Thing is, it's the easiest thing in the world, being content with being right; a far more diffcult course of study, is finding a measure of comfort in being wrong. And I fail. So, I cheat; I simplify - of course, I'm always wrong; Gwynnie is always right. Esssentially, writing the wording of mathematical theology validates my government subsidy.

But, only if I am allowed a measure of respect. I expect no one to respect my absurdity over a Hollywood princess; but since we share the experiences, that toil anticipates reward, I would like to speak of my area of expertise - mathematics - without a lot of math.

When I grew up, the seventh grade was an introducion for the stout of heart to explore the wonderfully arcane language of the algebra. The concrete becomes variable, becomes so much more by becoming so much less. X doesn't actually equal anything. The function y of x becomes a state of interdependance, becomes a language for speaking all words. The general public contends that x and y have nothing to do with green; but you could your last dollar that if everyone hadn't already been coded into variables, and solved by those who would rule; Uncle Sam would not be able to make the world safe for democracy, spreading the gospel of capitalism; which in this day, is actually based on nothing.

Those words, my credentials, the experience of a life lived; presented through a medium that allows anyone to claim anything, where everything said, proves nothing. But, I would expect a general consensus; that this fool is qualified to speak of basic seventh-grade algebra... Even if unentitled to speak beyond the introduction.

I speak of the order of operations. When X+b squared equals y times (b squared -b) + c; it is not enough to read from left to right. When x=y, y must = x; yet morality tells us of ends and means. In algebra, terms in parenthesis must be considered first. Things must be squared before they are subtracted, like terms must be gathered... and even then, the reward is not an answer, it is a more useful equation. Consider these algebraic expressions

 

[ellenjanuary]

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" -which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" -which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out in a loud voice, "Father, in to your hands I commit my spirit."

John 19:28 Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, I am thirsty. A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, it is finished.

To combine like terms is to assume the agreement between Matthew and Mark represents a purer distillation of truth. To consider first parenthesis is to wonder why a single statement is broken in two with the verbosity of John. To consider defining variables before refining the equation is to ask, just who is Eloi, and how can a modern man possibly "know" that lama sabachthani means anything outside of a cultural context to those who had ears to hear, and a mind to understand.

And all of that scholarship merely assumes. There is a very big elephant here, in a very small room; the longest running form of idolatry ever concieved - the worship of death. Jesus was created to be destroyed; but death was not nearly enough, he had to be destroyed in the most painful, most degrading avaiable to the technology of the time. It is assumed that death exists; when it has never been evidenced - these days, the math has been simplified into E=mc squared; yet despite the functional utility of that equation, people in general are afraid to use the universal tool of hindsight. There has never been death, there has never been life; all there ever was, is energy changing form.

I do not say this because I know, I say this because I have an agenda. Did not Jesus speak of agenda, in the parentheses of John? Is it not - peculiar - that the one place where the Last Words were more that the Last Statement; drawing attention to his final act being a willful forwarding of agenda? I know hypocracy. I have no problem with hypocracy until I catch another in the act. And here, I assume we can agree. That whatever words we choose to use; the reason that we use them is to forward our agendae.

Do you truly desire to guide the wayward away from the abyss; or has forwarding your agenda become a comfort in dogma? That what we do not understand is to be unnamed, and feared; or to be named, and worshipped? That the goad of salvation, under the geas of fellowship;; has for so many become nothing less than the idolatry scripture repeatedly deplored. That here we are avatars, electronic glyph in the post-modern now. But I can see, god on a cross; at each side, a mere mortal. You and me, to be crucified; two men accused by the Pharasees, their crimes immortalized by fickle tides of fame, the glaring eye of destiny.

One man holds the New Testament, speaks of the scholarship of a thousand years, speaks of a faith shared by billions; and follows a convention of understanding and fellowship built upon a tradition of such strength, that in any corner of the globe he travels, he can rest his weary faith in a house of god.

And, over here, we have the fool. It is not enough that scripture expressly prohibits the pagan of tattooing, this fool had to go and violate the tenets of his own trade; and tattoo a woman's name on his fool arm. It is not enough to break mortal convention, this fool had to carve her likeness into his flesh. Consider - blaspehme - while I contend - this - to be the living image of the living god.

And holding to the literal truth of a mere tome to be idolatry.

And between us, the crucified form of the Risen Son; so that we both may be weighed in shame for the carelessness of our words. For the single-mindedness of our own agendas. There is only one equation where all these diverse variables become a tool of utility. It is not enough to know that Christ died for our sins. It is not enough to contend the Resurrection to be merely past, our golden ticket of Christian elitism; that we can be safe in the knowledge that while they ridicule our faith, in the end, the wicked shall get their comeuppance.

Do we so easily forget, before we stood; all of us, first, had to crawl? That, like the order of operations; there is an entire language to be understood, once one builds upon a functional symbolism, of utility? Who am I, the fool, to tell you what it means to be born again? What it means, to have eternal life? And, yet; I can speak of scholarship in terms mathematical, where others of experience can validate the truth of this jargon. It ain't ever about the calculus, the matrix, the tensor; when one is trying to solve an equation and only succeeding in filling paper, one can almost always go back; find an error in the algebra.

This, my error; the weight of experience telling me, that six hours of my time, six excesses of wordiness in my posting... only to further validate the hypothesis that the fool only exists to be ignored. Like the Christ between us. The only quaternion that makes any sense of all these words

To be the Christ.

Not once, through ritualized prayer; with every word. The man who spoke of god merely said I am, claimed for his capitalized entitlement, the Son of Man. And that was not enough, to die, just once, in the worst possible manner. He had to commit the ultimate sacrifice - knowingly surrender god - so that he may carry our sin; and sin can die. To fulfill prophecy, to commit the eternal (and unique) sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit; suffer not only knowing he was created for destruction, to suffer for his calling to teach, while being fated be remembered mostly as a lesson. That a common criminal can witnesss the son turn away from the father - not because he needed to - not because he wanted - not because god so thusly commands.

That the one who was without sin died in sin - without god - because there is no teaching more accessable to the common criminal, that having a professor who is also a felon.

John 19:8 When Pilate heard this,he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from, " he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have the power to either free you or to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "you would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore, the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

And who is the only one, who can hand over the son, to a mere bureaucrat, to validate an example? Who is guilty of the greater sin? There is only one answer. God. There is but a single variable in my equation, that makes my depth of understanding, so much more from so much less, than your breadth of knowledge. That the sin of god is compassion. That the sin of Christ is compassion. That the sin of the faithful who speak of hell is compassion. That the sin of the fool who shall never be right is to know of compassion, that can never be wrong; but that is not enough for a fool - for an old testament prophet in a post-modern world; a world of moral right fused with political agenda into the testimony of our technology to speak to the immortal. What ever has been read into these words of my agenda, they are nothing more and nothing less that the truth of my being. I do not write to spread knowledge; I am merely a fool in love with a Gwyneth so far beyond me, that to speak to her my poem must echo with every single living being. Or not at all.

 

[Caladan]

I remember a line from a film (the movie adaptation of Anne of Green Gables, surprisingly) that's stuck with me: "to despair is to turn your back on God". I think it's perfectly understandable for a human being, but I don't understand it for the embodiment of the Living God.

I tend to agree. my point is to take the narrative to a more down to earth reality that modern people can actually relate to. not everyone today is reading the scriptures as a believer. perhaps Jesus thought he was the embodiment of God, but his physical torment might have been his realization of the reality of it all, or rather reality hitting him hard.
eitherway, I think people like you and me should look at it as a man going through physical torment, it is perfectly natural for him to cry out for his god.
we are not necessarily after the scriptural connection, we are first after the drama and reality of the event in a proper rational context.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I tend to agree. my point is to take the narrative to a more down to earth reality that modern people can actually relate to. not everyone today is reading the scriptures as a believer. perhaps Jesus thought he was the embodiment of God, but his physical torment might have been his realization of the reality of it all, or rather reality hitting him hard.
eitherway, I think people like you and me should look at it as a man going through physical torment, it is perfectly natural for him to cry out for his god.
we are not necessarily after the scriptural connection, we are first after the drama and reality of the event in a proper rational context.

But I think the scriptural connection is important.

From what I've been told (and I may be completely wrong, but I trust my source), at this time in history, the psalms were referred to by their first line, not by number. They were also widely known. I think in that context, someone shouting "My God, why have you forsaken me!" would be a lot like someone shouting "Amazing Grace!" today. There would be an instant connection to the song/psalm in the minds of the witnesses.

 

[Thief]

Hey Ellen!.....and to anyone else who cares.....

When the Carpenter pronounced....'it is finished'....
He might not have been speaking of His ministry...His agenda.

That would be coincidence.

He was more likely speaking of His own mortality.....
in the same way we all will do....
as we surrender our last breathes.

I do find it odd.
So many people insist on the literal sense of a word....
and then fail to use it.

 

[Caladan]

But I think the scriptural connection is important.

Yes it is.

From what I've been told (and I may be completely wrong, but I trust my source), at this time in history, the psalms were referred to by their first line, not by number. They were also widely known. I think in that context, someone shouting "My God, why have you forsaken me!" would be a lot like someone shouting "Amazing Grace!" today. There would be an instant connection to the song/psalm in the minds of the witnesses.

You are of course right, for Jesus to instinctively quote this verse line of psalms must have made the event of his crucifixion more intense and desperate for those who witnessed it.
however, I also think the event is made more intense, tragic and dramatic when we come to terms with the human torment and reality of it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are of course right, for Jesus to instinctively quote this verse line of psalms must have made the event of his crucifixion more intense and desperate for those who witnessed it.

Fair enough, but I think interpretation they would've taken was "this man is trying to tell himself that God never gives up on anyone", not "this man thinks that God has given up on him".

 

[Caladan]

Fair enough, but I think interpretation they would've taken was "this man is trying to tell himself that God never gives up on anyone", not "this man thinks that God has given up on him".

I think that any man when going through a Roman crucifixion would completely feel that his God has forsaken him, no matter the amount of zeal or fanaticism.
lets be realistic to physical pain over our religious convictions. not everyone are as crazed as the Jewish rebels in Masada or as the Mujahideen, and chances are that under torture most of these men may break as well, despite their religious convictions.
at the end of the day Jesus was according to gospels indeed a passionate and sharp man, but he was also kind and peace making, that is hardly a motivation for a glorious martydom.

 

[Thief]

Now at this point....
Are you all assuming that scripture was on the mind of the Carpenter?
as He hung dying?

Maybe....however...

Is it not more likely....the same Spirit that bolstered every word and gesture during His ministry....
was suddenly silent?

 

[ellenjanuary]

Perfection in weakness, is god's sufficient grace. I didn't say that, Paul did. Everybody forgets the algebra. No one "comes to god" without defining the most important variable in that most unknowable equation. I. When god said, I AM, he didn't tell us his name, he told us how to be named. When Jesus said I am, he didn't name himself god, he was reminding us of the basics. The algebra. And for whatever truth held in the elusive container "the Word of God," for I to speak of such without mathematics, without Gwyneth Paltrow; would be to tell a lie.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Hey Ellen!.....and to anyone else who cares.....

When the Carpenter pronounced....'it is finished'....
He might not have been speaking of His ministry...His agenda.

That would be coincidence.

He was more likely speaking of His own mortality.....
in the same way we all will do....
as we surrender our last breathes.

I do find it odd.
So many people insist on the literal sense of a word....
and then fail to use it.

There's a wise man on the mountain: there's a fool, in the yard, drinking beer. If the goal of the seeker is wisdom, the inaccessability of the wise is in itself a lesson to be learned. If the goal of the seeker is to avoid foolishness; skip the journey, let's have a beer. I will sing of my love of my Gwynnies, you will be content in being not me.

 

[smokydot]

I have heard this rebuttal so many times......'personal opinion'......
And whether I take it 'personal' or not....
whether you take it 'personal' or not....
At what point do you actually say...'nay'?

At no point, unless we believe the same thing.
Because I can't prove what I bdelieve any more than you can prove what you believe.
It's either opinion or faith.

 

[free spirit]

Daily stresses caused by events beyond our control make us feel that the world is crashing down around us, and at times of anguish we think that even God has abandoned us. This must have been the thought that went through Jesus’ mind when he uttered, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”
If we superficially read the above phrase that Jesus uttered on the cross, we can be forgiven for thinking that for a time the Father had truly abandoned Him, because many of us mistakenly believe that while He was hanging on the cross, Jesus was made sin and thus had become accursed of God. This erroneous thinking has been supported by the incomplete and misquoted verse of Galatians 3:13, which said: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.” This phrase undeniably has influenced our belief that Jesus became accursed (or was made a sinner) from the instant that He was hanging on the cross carrying our sins. Justifiably, we also thought that it was necessary at that horrid time for His father to look away.
By thinking all of the above, we fail to grasp the obvious, for we ought to know that when Jesus was made flesh, He was also made sin; for flesh and sin are one and the same.

 

[Thief]

At no point, unless we believe the same thing.
Because I can't prove what I bdelieve any more than you can prove what you believe.
It's either opinion or faith.

Actually....no.

It's a simple straight forward observation.
Read the title of this thread again.

Then sit a focus.

He was alone, as He surrendered His last breath.

There is no more to it.

I've had this perspective thoroughly in place for several decades.
I did not overlook it as I read the scriptures.

But apparently...most people do.
And then when it is brought forward....most people want to 'white wash' it.

As if such things won't happen to them.

 

[no-body]

It's a highlight of Jesus humanity. If he went on the cross knowing he was God the sacrifice would be pointless. Which it is anyways because what did Jesus do wipe his own mind before those events happened?

But it's another indication that the bible is too varied and imperfect to be "the word of God" if it really was the word of God there would be no need to study it or understand the culture and time and place it was written in it would make perfect sense in any language.

 

[smokydot]

It's a highlight of Jesus humanity. If he went on the cross knowing he was God the sacrifice would be pointless. Which it is anyways because what did Jesus do wipe his own mind before those events happened?

But it's another indication that the bible is too varied and imperfect to be "the word of God"

if it really was the word of God there would be no need to study it or understand the culture and time and place it was written in it would make perfect sense in any language.

And you know this how?

 

[no-body]

And you know this how?

Common sense. If it was truly God's ultimate message to his creation then there would be no vagueness or need for interpretation.

As it is the message needs to be interpreted by a group of higher ups in pretty much every denomination to control the individual. Isn't that convenient?

 

[smokydot]

Common sense. If it was truly God's ultimate message to his creation then there would be no vagueness or need for interpretation.

Poor ole God. . .he has the knowledge, power, and wisdom to make 'em. . .now he has to run it their way. . .

As it is the message needs to be interpreted by a group of higher ups in pretty much every denomination to control the individual. Isn't that convenient?

Pretty simplistic reasoning, I'd say.

 

[smokydot]

Actually....no.

Your question was: at what point do we actually say...'nay'?
Evidently I got the "about what?" wrong.

It's a simple straight forward observation.
Read the title of this thread again.
Then sit a focus.
He was alone, as He surrendered His last breath.
There is no more to it.
I've had this perspective thoroughly in place for several decades.
I did not overlook it as I read the scriptures.
But apparently...most people do.
And then when it is brought forward....most people want to 'white wash' it.
As if such things won't happen to them.

It's not a 'white wash' when we say that because God's just wrath on sin was visited on Jesus on the cross, it won't be visited on those who believe in him.
Nor is it a 'white wash' to say that because he was abandoned at death on the cross, those who believe in him will not be abandoned at death.

What's to overlook? What's to bring forward? In his humanity, he was forsaken.
That's what God's wrath is--separation. That's why he went to the cross, to satisfy the just wrath of God on sin.

 

[Thief]

Your question was: at what point do we actually say...'nay'?
Evidently I got the "about what?" wrong.
It's not a 'white wash' when we say that because God's just wrath on sin was visited on Jesus on the cross, it won't be visited on those who believe in him.
Nor is it a 'white wash' to say that because he was abandoned at death on the cross, those who believe in him will not be abandoned at death.

What's to overlook? What's to bring forward? In his humanity, he was forsaken.
That's what God's wrath is--separation. That's why he went to the cross, to satisfy the just wrath of God on sin.

And again...this is where dogma (white wash) fails.

The Carpenter saved no one in His death.

It was His living...and His parables....the save all.

He went to the cross, and knew He was going, because His teachings were unacceptable to authority of His time.
The pharisees plotted His death from the moment He spoke...
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

He went to the cross under a false accusation of insurrection.
"Jesus...King of the Jews"