"My God, My God, Why Has Thou Forsaken Me?

[no-body]

Poor ole God. . .he has the knowledge, power, and wisdom to make 'em. . .now he has to run it their way. . .
Pretty simplistic reasoning, I'd say.

I don't see any concrete facts there to contradict what I've said, which is my point. Any "God" worth their salt would make concrete facts self evident truths. To say it's free will that people disagree is the reason religion has led to so much evil and murder in the first place, in which case God is really a devil.

 

[smokydot]

I don't see any concrete facts there to contradict what I've said, which is my point. Any "God" worth their salt would make concrete facts self evident truths. To say it's free will that people disagree is the reason religion has led to so much evil and murder in the first place, in which case God is really a devil.

Free will is not a Biblical doctrine. Jesus said we were slaves to sin.

I'm sure God is quite dismayed at your disappointment in the way he does things.

 

[smokydot]

And again...this is where dogma (white wash) fails.
The Carpenter saved no one in His death.
It was His living...and His parables....the save all.
He went to the cross, and knew He was going, because His teachings were unacceptable to authority of His time.
The pharisees plotted His death from the moment He spoke...
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
He went to the cross under a false accusation of insurrection.
"Jesus...King of the Jews"

How much of the NT do you know?

Jesus said he came to die as a ransom for the sin of many. (Matt 20:28)
Jesus said the cup was his blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin. (Matt 26:28)
Jesus said he was the good shepherd that lays down his life for the sheep. (Jn 10:11)

This isn't 'white wash'. . .this is Scripture.
You are the one who is 'white washing' Jesus' atonement for sin.

 

[Thief]

How much of the NT do you know?

Jesus said he came to die as a ransom for the sin of many. (Matt 20:28)
Jesus said the cup was his blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin. (Matt 26:28)
Jesus said he was the good shepherd that lays down his life for the sheep. (Jn 10:11)

This isn't 'white wash'. . .this is Scripture.
You are the one who is 'white washing' Jesus' atonement for sin.

You have that typical track of mind.

I've been doing this for a long time.
And it is as scripture says....
You can't put new wine in a used bottle.

By 'white washing' I mean the technique you are using.
You hear something you don't like.....
and then you recite what you think you're sure of.

The topic title is correct....
He was forsaken.
And you did not benefit by it.

And in all likelihood.....such things come your way.

If you persist I will show you why 'white washing' doesn't work.

 

[smokydot]

You have that typical track of mind.

It's called believing the testimony of the Scriptures.

I've been doing this for a long time.
And it is as scripture says....
You can't put new wine in a used bottle.

Surely you aren't thinking you are the new wine of the new covenant. . .

By 'white washing' I mean the technique you are using.
You hear something you don't like.....
and then you recite what you think you're sure of.

When the testimony of Scripture is misrepresented, as you have done, I present the words of its testimony. . .they speak for themselves. . .as in
Jesus' own words that he came to die for the forgiveness of sin--Matt 20:28, 26:28; Jn 10:11.

He was forsaken.
And you did not benefit by it.

He was most definitely forsaken. That is what God's wrath is, which he voluntarily suffered for the sin of those who believe in him.
So that means I have to decide who to believe. . .you or the Word of God written. . .that's a no brainer.

And in all likelihood.....such things come your way.

In no likelihood will they come my way at my death.

If you persist I will show you why 'white washing' doesn't work.

The only 'white washing' going on here is your white washing of Jesus' atoning work.

 

[ellenjanuary]

It's called believing the testimony of the Scriptures.
Surely you aren't thinking you are the new wine of the new covenant. . .

When the testimony of Scripture is misrepresented, as you have done, I present the words of its testimony. . .they speak for themselves. . .

That ain't heavy?

You are carrying the burden of hell. It is really quite beyond my comprehension how anyone can touch the Spirit, and even concieve of such nonsense. No offense, but I worry for you. It is most likely that the burdens of the mortal realm weigh one down at the threshold of eternity; and I honestly believe - this hell, this misinterpretation of the threshold - is one of the worst things to bring to the transition point. I've been there, Thief's been there; I cannot speak for Thief, but I have such an absolute - lack - of the "fear of death" that I basically cannot talk of such things in public.

Coupla days ago, writing about algebra? I wasn't discussing book learning, I was there. Four hours, dancing around my house, joyous; all those words to say nothing other than to lessen your burden. I mean, I could feel it. All these mortal woes and worries, all this striving in vanity, all this perception of causal time - none of it is about what we really are. None of it. This concept of sin is nothing more than the animal within us all operating within the confines of a finite environment. Competition for resources, for mates, for status; all that is the animal. It is not wrong, it is natural; one who touches the spirit should be able to see beyond these things.

I got two things: I love, and god does not do sequential time. Considering simultanity and the Spirit, disregarding the environmental hazards of coveteousness, pride, jealousy - jump into the Bible, whole thing makes sense. I have yet to find a sacred text that I cannot fall into, and jump out of with a bunch of joy.

Born into sin is born into mortal flesh. The secret of the sabbath is to give your inner wolf its moments of howling at the moon. Be courteus of life, and life will be courteous to you...

And there really ain't no death. Live in joy and harmony.

 

[smokydot]

That ain't heavy?
You are carrying the burden of hell. It is really quite beyond my comprehension how anyone can touch the Spirit, and even concieve of such nonsense. No offense, but I worry for you. It is most likely that the burdens of the mortal realm weigh one down at the threshold of eternity; and I honestly believe - this hell, this misinterpretation of the threshold - is one of the worst things to bring to the transition point. I've been there, Thief's been there; I cannot speak for Thief, but I have such an absolute - lack - of the "fear of death" that I basically cannot talk of such things in public.
Coupla days ago, writing about algebra? I wasn't discussing book learning, I was there. Four hours, dancing around my house, joyous; all those words to say nothing other than to lessen your burden. I mean, I could feel it. All these mortal woes and worries, all this striving in vanity, all this perception of causal time - none of it is about what we really are. None of it. This concept of sin is nothing more than the animal within us all operating within the confines of a finite environment. Competition for resources, for mates, for status; all that is the animal. It is not wrong, it is natural; one who touches the spirit should be able to see beyond these things.
I got two things: I love, and god does not do sequential time. Considering simultanity and the Spirit, disregarding the environmental hazards of coveteousness, pride, jealousy - jump into the Bible, whole thing makes sense. I have yet to find a sacred text that I cannot fall into, and jump out of with a bunch of joy.
Born into sin is born into mortal flesh. The secret of the sabbath is to give your inner wolf its moments of howling at the moon. Be courteus of life, and life will be courteous to you...
And there really ain't no death. Live in joy and harmony.

Sounds like you've found where you belong. . .

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Common sense. If it was truly God's ultimate message to his creation then there would be no vagueness or need for interpretation.

If he really did think he was God, then he wouldn't have considered it God's "ultimate" message.

If you know you're going to be resurrected in a few days, then you know you'll have the opportunity to talk to people again later.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Sounds like you've found where you belong. . .

I'm glad we're finally able to communicate. Sorry about the lecture.

Thing is, I put it to the scientific method. I made an observation, formed an hypothesis (using a bit of mathematical chicanery and my love of Gwyneth), and conducted an experiment...

Resulting in the loss of my job and a self-enforced exile from society for more than a year.

And now, I believe in Gwyneth Paltrow; yet I sit in church for hours with my yap shut and enjoy the fellowship of the spirit? There's only one vector that allows such an absurdity:

God.

Be well.

 

[smokydot]

I'm glad we're finally able to communicate. Sorry about the lecture.

Thing is, I put it to the scientific method. I made an observation, formed an hypothesis (using a bit of mathematical chicanery and my love of Gwyneth), and conducted an experiment...

Resulting in the loss of my job and a self-enforced exile from society for more than a year.

And now, I believe in Gwyneth Paltrow; yet I sit in church for hours with my yap shut and enjoy the fellowship of the spirit? There's only one vector that allows such an absurdity:

God.

Be well.

Have you been able to find employment in this economy?

 

[Thief]

It's called believing the testimony of the Scriptures.
Surely you aren't thinking you are the new wine of the new covenant. . .

When the testimony of Scripture is misrepresented, as you have done, I present the words of its testimony. . .they speak for themselves. . .as in
Jesus' own words that he came to die for the forgiveness of sin--Matt 20:28, 26:28; Jn 10:11.
He was most definitely forsaken. That is what God's wrath is, which he voluntarily suffered for the sin of those who believe in him.
So that means I have to decide who to believe. . .you or the Word of God written. . .that's a no brainer.
In no likelihood will they come my way at my death.
The only 'white washing' going on here is your white washing of Jesus' atoning work.

So you're going to continue in your belief in scapegoating?

 

[ellenjanuary]

Have you been able to find employment in this economy?

Actually, this is my job. To learn to communicate religious concepts with minimum wording and maximum expression. I have a series of diagrams and pictures composing what I call mathematical theology; the more I communicate, the more these diagrams seem to be a universal aid to understanding. If I can just learn to express myself without sounding like an arrogant ***; a coupla years of research for facts and figures should see this fool publishing a tome tentatively entitled "Number Made Flesh."

The economy is still crap. Arizona ain't as bad as other places; but it still ain't picking up. If there's a changing trend, I would not be surprised to see my former boss darkening my doorstep, looking to drag my wayward poeticness back into the capitalistic fold.

 

[smokydot]

So you're going to continue in your belief in scapegoating?

I am going to continue my belief in the testimony of the NT that Jesus voluntarily sacrificed himself as proptiation of the wrath of God
on the sin of those who believe in him.

 

[KingArfer]

Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
This Psalm is considered to be "messianic" by orthodox biblical scholars. It foreshadows the suffering of the Christ.

Google the words in that verse and you will find explanations of the references in Psalm 22 to events that happened at the cross.

Since this is my first post here, I can't post links, but at CARM "dot" org you find this piece:

In Matthew, it says, "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" If Jesus is God, why would He say this?
First of all, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?". Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22: Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.
The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf.Matt. 15). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt 27:35.
Psalm 22 was written about 600 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. Actually, the Phoenicians developed it and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So, when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Nevertheless, Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
This Psalm is considered to be "messianic" by orthodox biblical scholars. It foreshadows the suffering of the Christ.

Google the words in that verse and you will find explanations of the references in Psalm 22 to events that happened at the cross.

Since this is my first post here, I can't post links, but at CARM "dot" org you find this piece:

In Matthew, it says, "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" If Jesus is God, why would He say this?
First of all, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?". Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22: Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.
The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf.Matt. 15). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt 27:35.
Psalm 22 was written about 600 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. Actually, the Phoenicians developed it and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So, when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Nevertheless, Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission.

I have a NIV Study Bible which mentions this possibility and the other; it's a good work. Jesus never dies, in the House of Cantor.
1John4:4 he that is within you is greater than in the world.

 

[Thief]

I am going to continue my belief in the testimony of the NT that Jesus voluntarily sacrificed himself as proptiation of the wrath of God
on the sin of those who believe in him.

Good luck with that!

 

[smokydot]

Good luck with that!

It's not a matter of luck, it's a matter of God's promise.

 

[Thief]

It's not a matter of luck, it's a matter of God's promise.

I will start a thread for this....

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

I think the story is much more practical and down to earth than that. when a man is crucified on a cross according to Roman law, he is tormented, he is in great physical pain and anguish. there is no big surprise for the man to call out for his God in this moment of pain and abandonment.

It is written, that Jesus said, that no man can take His life, but rather Jesus Himself, had the power to give up His life, and take it back again. This was commanded of Him, by The Father. Taking this into account, why would Jesus have to cry out, at all? Something happened. Jesus must have tried to 'give up His life', but couldn't do so. Jesus' father would not have lied to Him. This is why I believe, that His 'job' was not finished. This would have been a perfect time to allow satan to tempt Him, and prove, that Jesus would not lose His faith in His Father.

 

[Politesse]

Perhaps he was simply anguished. Perhaps he was afraid to die. These are natural human things. I don't think a person incapable of fear or doubt or despair would really be a human.