Dao Hao Now
Active Member
Again……. How did you calculate those odds?
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My journey back to atheism
- Thread starter dfnj
- Start date
Again……. How did you calculate those odds?
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
Pray tell, how many the plethora of gods worshiped since the cavemen do you believe in?
Is it because of a wish you might be right?
I never claimed to have “proof there is not a god”,
I simply have not seen any credible evidence that there is one.
This begs the question; do you have proof that there IS a god?
As for farm animals, I fail to see what they have to do with any of this.
syo
Well-Known Member
Atheism is a trend. What's wrong with people and they all become atheists?
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
It is my understanding that many people believe in ghosts.
As to how many have seen ghosts;
Do you mean have ACTUALLY seen ghosts, or have SURMISED to have seen ghosts?
By this are you implying that spirits can’t be seen?
Are spirits and ghosts the same sort of thing?
Do you not see how this refutes your contention that because men have held superstitious beliefs that it follows that those superstitious are in fact true?
Augustus
…
You are right. Some of them certainly were Deists.
People often think Enlightenment era Deism was the same as modern Deism which is not quite accurate though.
Enlightenment Deism tended to be Providential Deism, which held that the creator god had been specifically benevolent in the act of creation and that the world had been created with the aim of human flourishing. It was simply up to us to realise the methods to realise the divine plan.
This view underpinned things like free-market economics (the invisible hand was Divine Providence), and the idea that commerce was a civilising mission and humans acting in commercial self-interest were acting in the greater good.
It was basically an evolution of liberal Protestantism, that sought to promote reason and free people from superstition (in the tradition of the Protestant reformation had sought to 'free' Catholics from superstition).
That's why you get something like the Jefferson Bible, as they were pretty much "Christian" Deists.
This was a criticism of Nietzsche towards later atheists: that they had rejected the Christian God but were still married to the Christian ethics.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
I think I’m beginning to grasp your meaning.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
You are contended that “ reality” and “existence” are two different things;
“existence” is what the world, the universe et.al. actually is,
and “reality” is what humans individually perceive “existence” to be.
Am I on the right track?
In my opinion we’re in the area of semantics here, but I’ll play along.
So using my perceived interpretation of your distinction outlined above…..would you contend that
“existence” is NOT dependent on human minds and exists independently of them?
So one might correctly say there was a “here” here before humans arrived on the scene, and were humans to cease existing there would still be a
“here” here?
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Dao Hao Now I hope all is well...
Man has always believed in a God or god'.. Right from the Cave man! It is the creatures with a "LOWER Intellect" that do not! Cows, Pigs and Snails do not!
It is my understanding that many people believe in ghosts.
As to how many have seen ghosts;
You ask... Do you mean have ACTUALLY seen ghosts, or have SURMISED to have seen ghosts?
FACT: People believe there are Ghosts! The North American Indian believed is "A Great White Spirit"! The Inca of Central America had their belief in gods, they offered human sacrifice to their gods!
The Egyptians had many gods! Etc
FACT: People have always believed in God/gods! Then their is you.. You come along with ZERO proof saying; "Stop the press.. The whole world has been wrong all these centuries "There is NO GOD!"
Dao Hao Now Billions' of people believe in god/gods always have! People believe there are Ghosts!
It's a fact that humans believe in all sorts of ideas, some rational, some irrational. It's not a fact that people are correct in their beliefs. Make a claim, we can assess it for being plausible or not, and likely true or likely untrue.
Not early humans. Belief in abstract ideas like gods came just in the last 10 thousand years or so, and this corresponds to the development of permanent settlements. With permanent settlements came free time, and with free time meant time to invent concepts and ponder life. Gods were a common set of ideas all over the planet, thousands of god concepts. None correspond to anything that is real or true. At best gods are a type of ideal human, that have powers beyond the ordinary human, and have the authority that human can only dream about. Gods deny every element of human humility, and can be said to be the epitome of arrogance the human dreams for himself.
Which of the many thousands of gods exists? Your version? What about the gods of others?
And all belief is uncertain. Beliefs that are credible have an abundance of evidence to show they are likely true. None of that applies to gods or ghosts. Fun ideas, but lacking in evidence. Sorry.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
I’m happy to see you have an appreciation of facts. But, I fear you have some problems with the epistemology of some facts and the conclusions that can be drawn from them.
I’ll give you the benefit of doubt and not deduce a thinly veiled inference that any creature (one might assume could include a person) that lacks belief in a god is of lower intellect, as an attack on my intellect since I do not believe in a god.
I recognize this as historically accepted fact and have no reason to doubt it.
Are you implying that not only the fact THAT they believed, but also WHAT they believed is correct?
If so, which of these spirits and gods do you accept as being true?
Do you worship any of them?
If not, why?
Would you concede that it is possible for people to hold beliefs that are not true?
I’m not sure I can go along with “always believed in God/gods!”
I’ll grant you people have long believed in gods.
Fact: you misrepresent that I have said “There is NO GOD!”
As you can plainly see I said
Fact: There are a multitude of people today who have varying beliefs in vast number of gods, many of which contradict the others.
Since many of these gods contradict the existence of the other gods, it would logically follow that they can NOT all be true. Thus, it is obviously possible for people to believe in a god that are not true.
Therefore Fact: The fact that people believe in something does not mean WHAT they believe in is in fact a “fact”.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
F1fan Good to meet you...
Yes BELIEF is a Theory once a thing is proven it becomes a FACT!
............................................................
Theory...a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained:
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based:
"a theory of education"
...............................................................
The Atheist ... BELIEVES there is Not a god!
F1fan The atheist has a THEORY; All he is going on is his BELIEF!
The Atheist cannot prove there is not a god! UNTIL...
F1fan until the atheist can prove there is no god all they have is a BELIEF! You cannot say.. It is up to the person who has a BELIEF in god to prove it so.... Because all true BELIEFS are theories!
I BELIEVE the sun will rise tomorrow BUT; Until it does rise it is just a theory!
God is not visible he is Spirit!
FACT: People... Many people believe in Ghosts.. Many people claim to have seen Ghosts!
People believe in God/gods the world has always believed in a god of some sort!
Caveman believed in an after life.... There are evidences of items buried with their dead for their next life!
Lower forms of life.. Example: Pigs do not believe in a god! Humans put themselves above pigs!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Dao Hao Now You asked... Would you concede that it is possible for people to hold beliefs that are not true?
I reply: YES... The Atheist "BELIEVES" there is not a god! He cannot PROVE there is not any gods! All the Atheist has is BELIEF and THEORY!
Logic does say; there is TRUTH! Logic does say, they cannot all be the true God! Logic does say;: "There is a God of some sort"!
Dao Hao Now You claim to be an Atheist... You do not have to say: "There is NO god"; it is implied!
You asked: "Do I worship any gods"!?
I reply: Worship is for God and only God! There are many people that worship money or a car!
Well this is pretty fuzzy wording. I doubt you understand basic science. Do you even know what a hypothesis is? Do you know how a theory in science is considered valid versus a failure?
Very few strong atheists do. The vast majority of atheists simply reject the claims made by believers that their many versions of Gods exist. There is no evidence that any exist.
False. This is an absurd claim.
We atheists allow theists to demonstrate their God exists outside of their imagination and they can't do it. Why should we assume their beliefs are true? They can't explain how they decided a God exists.
Until theists explain exactly what their God is, and how they know it exists, and how they came to a valid conclusion their version is true. They don't, so we remain unconvinced.
False. We don't believe anything about the many Gods of theists. We are indifferent to the idea of a god and we ask believers questions about why they believe in one god or another. All we do is listen to what the believer claims, and we assess it. No theist can offer any facts, or other evidence than any gods anywhere exist outside of their imagination, so we remain unconvinced.
Why do theists have such a hard time showing they have any evidence for the gods they insist exist?
That's why we wait for believers to demonstrate their gods exist. They can't. So we remain unconvinced.
Theories in science have met a minimum standard of 99.95%, so way more accurate than any arbitrary belief. Theory as used in the tabloid magazine context, meaning speculation, is closer to what you mean here. But this type of speculation is often flawed and lacking adequate evidence. Beliefs are judgments of ideas. Juries in court come to a verdict that the 12 jurors have agreed upon as a belief in guilt. As we know juries get verdicts wrong, so belief is not perfect and can be flawed due to many variables. So belief can be dead wrong, and implausible, like the Noah Flood myth, or highly likely.
False. The sun rising (false idea as it's actually the earth that rotates) happens as a matter of fact. There is no reason to believe it would stop happening. IF some circumstance that the earth stopped rotating we would all be dead before you would wake up. So this is an absurd example.
The earth rotating is a fact, so we don't need to believe it happens. We don't have to believe in facts, they are real and there to verify as existing or real via the sense. Beliefs are only things we cannot be certain about or verify. This is why theories in science are better than beliefs. Tests verify that evolution is a real phenomenon, and it isn't a matter of belief.
I'm not convinced. Prove it.
Irrelevant. People believe in things they are wrong about.
Irrelevant.
Yet pigs have the wisdom to not believe in irrational and stupid things like many humans. Good for the pigs.
PureX
Veteran Member
"Here" is a cognitive delineation of space. So without this human cognitive delineation, there is no "here", or "there". There is only a meaningless everywhere. This isn't just semantics. It's what is.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
OK, let’s try this one more time, and please try to pay attention to the actual details and actual questions. This really is not that difficult.
This you got right!
That is exactly what I asked. Thank you.
Your replied; “YES…The Atheist “BELIEVES” there is not a god!”
Close but not quite. Now pay attention to the detail here and see if you can spot the difference.
This atheist (I’m speaking for myself) does NOT believe that there IS a god.
Did you spot the difference?
Once again; I do NOT believe that there is a god.
It’s not that I have a belief…. it’s that I do NOT have a belief in a god.
Got it? Are you still with me?
You then continue;
“He can not PROVE there are not any gods! All the Atheist has is BELIEF and THEORY!”
As I pointed out above…I do NOT believe in YOUR THEORY that there is a god.
Since I do NOT believe YOUR THEORY that a god exists, that leaves it up to YOU to PROVE that your god exists. Can you do that?
If not, that means that you BELIEVE in a THEORY that you can not PROVE.
See, that wasn’t so hard was it?
Now for the logic part, you said:
“Logic does say; there is TRUTH! Logic does say, they cannot all be the true God! Logic does say;: "There is a God of some sort"!”
You started off OK;
Yes logic can lead to logical truths,
and your correct that the situation I explained in a previous post (the fact that since there are many gods believed in today that contradict the beliefs in many other gods believed today) shows that it’s logical to conclude that they can not all be true.
But, you came off the rails on “Logic does say;: "There is a God of some sort"!”
Your going to have to substantiate that one!
You say; “You claim to be an Atheist... You do not have to say: "There is NO god"; it is implied!”
I don’t have to say anything, but I chose to do so in order to make myself as clear as possible.
This way hopefully someone won’t be confused about my position and mistakenly think I implied a position that I don’t necessarily hold.
Let me say again for clarity sake:
I do NOT BELIEVE that a god exists.
Again this is were you need to pay attention to details.
I did NOT say: I believe a god does not exist.
I DID say: I do not believe a god exists.
Did you get it that time?
Next you claim: “You asked: "Do I worship any gods"!?”
Actually no.
After you made the statement:
“FACT: People believe there are Ghosts! The North American Indian believed is "A Great White Spirit"! The Inca of Central America had their belief in gods, they offered human sacrifice to their gods!
The Egyptians had many gods! Etc”
I then asked:
“Are you implying that not only the fact THAT they believed, but also WHAT they believed is correct?
If so, which of these spirits and gods do you accept as being true?
Do you worship any of them?
If not, why?”
Here, I’ll reword it for you:
Do you believe the fact that these different civilizations believed in various gods, it makes WHAT they believe in true?
If you answer “yes” to that question, it would logically follow that you believe that the “Great White Spirit”, the gods of the Incas, the gods of the Egyptians, etc. are true.
Is this correct?
Which of these do you accept as true?
Do you worship the “Great White Spirit”, or the gods of the Incas, or the gods of Egypt, etc.?
If you don’t worship them….why not?
Can you please honestly answer these questions?
As for your reply:
“Worship is for God and only God! There are many people that worship money or a car!”
I don’t get it. It seems nonsensical to me and a complete non sequitur.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
OK well I tried to understand your point of view but you’re obviously hung up on words rather than concepts, so this conversation will obviously go nowhere.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Wow, none of that is true. Atheism is the lack or absence of a belief in any deity or deity, what individual atheists believe is irrelevant.
You can't disprove unfalsifiable claims, so what? This doesn't lend a claim any credence, you're using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. You can't prove we aren't surrounded by invisible unicorns, this doesn't make them real.
The person making the claim absolutely carries the burden of proof, and no beliefs need not all be theories, they could be supported by overwhelming objective evidence, I believe the world is not flat, this is both a belief I hold and an irrefutable fact.
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Sheldon
Veteran Member
Yes they were superstitious, but would have been extremely ignorant of the natural world, so hardly a surprise they filled in this lack of knowledge with unevidenced superstition.
Pigs are a distant evolutionary relative of humans. We last shared a common ancestor with pigs about 80 million years ago.
We share many physical characteristics with pigs.
The similarities between humans and pigs.
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Sheldon
Veteran Member
At least we know cars are real, and money though abstract, can have a real effect. I recognise the belief can have an affect, but there is no evidence this is caused by any extant deity.
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PureX
Veteran Member
Arrogance and ignorance are each other's best friends. And usually each other's only friends.
Yerda
Veteran Member
Can you explain why you think God is self-evident?