My thoughts on Muslim men and Feminism

[Sakeenah]

I'm not claiming any have achieved equality, but having some things enshrined in a religious belief will hardly make it easier - as Saudi Arabia is finding out, and possibly Iran. This from your cited article:

Of course, it is not enough to point out the positive changes Islam instigated for women in the 7th century, and ignore the all-too-many negative circumstances Muslim women find themselves facing in the present day.

Perhaps that was not aimed at the religious doctrines but elsewhere, but most Western nations as far as I can see place fewer obstacles in the path of females gaining equality than many Islamic countries or those having a predominantly Muslim population.

In regards to this thread,it was important to point out the positive changes Islam had instigated for women at that time. Because the OP claims that Islam opresses women, and did not bring any positive changes for women.
That quote is not aimed at Islam, but at how some Muslim women are treated in their communities. I agree that in general women in the East (this includes non Muslim countries) face more obstacles than women in Western nations.

 

[Sakeenah]

Hello Sakeenah. Gender inequality is by no means unique to certain branches of Islam. Within my own religion (Christianity) there are certain sects that treat women like second class citizens.

Hey David,
I personally don't believe Islam promotes gender inequality. Yes, there are Muslim men who treat women like second class citizens, but I think it's mostly cultural norms that reinforce gender inequality.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Pretty much everything I would have said has been said here already. But I think it's worth emphasizing that beginning a discussion or debate with 'your holy book REALLY says this, you are reading it wrong if you don't agree,' never goes anywhere productive. Just like with Christianity, or any religion which has holy books, Islam has socially liberal interpretations which are not especially rare. And those of us who are socially liberal should celebrate those interpretations, not say that they're wrong with the ultimate intent to get rid of entire religions. That's just strawmanning. Literally trying to supplant their interpretation with one you feel is easier to knock over.

Something akin to not acknowledging that bible-nonliteralism is a thing that exists in high numbers because you want to criticize Christianity, full stop, as being literalist.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I should also add that you're removing the voice of Muslim women who obviously do not believe Islam 'when read correctly' means they are to be oppressed.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I should also add that you're removing the voice of Muslim women who obviously do not believe Islam 'when read correctly' means they are to be oppressed.

No problems with Saudi Arabia then, and the influence they seem intent on spreading?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No problems with Saudi Arabia then, and the influence they seem intent on spreading?

To quote Frank:

you do realize there's over a billion Muslims, right? Apparently you think they're all rigid Wahhabis. Obviously they're not.

Islamic feminism - Wikipedia

 

[Mock Turtle]

To quote Frank:

Islamic feminism - Wikipedia

But you didn't answer the question.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

You should be worried about all women globally. Gender inequality has very little do with being Muslim.
Gender inequality is a global problem not just a Muslim problem.
Only four out of over 135 nations have achieved gender equality including Costa Rica, Cuba, Sweden, and Norway.

Well, let's see. Muslim police in Saudi Arabia forced young girls back into a burning building where they died terrible deaths, because they were not wearing Muslim attire. Would this happen in a country not dominated by Muslims? Of course not. 15 girls die as zealots 'drive them into blaze'

 

[David1967]

Hey David,
I personally don't believe Islam promotes gender inequality. Yes, there are Muslim men who treat women like second class citizens, but I think it's mostly cultural norms that reinforce gender inequality.

Agree. Which is why I use the term "certain" branches or sects. I believe both Islam and Christianity are too diverse to paint with a wide brush.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Agree. The OP needs to be streamlined a bit.

Muslim zealots (police) in Saudi Arabia forced young girls not wearing Muslim attire back into a blazing fire where they died. Would this happen in a non-Muslim country? Of course not. This event was an example of pure evil, and it is not uncommon in Muslim countries.

 

[David1967]

Muslim zealots (police) in Saudi Arabia forced young girls not wearing Muslim attire back into a blazing fire where they died. Would this happen in a non-Muslim country? Of course not. This event was an example of pure evil, and it is not uncommon in Muslim countries.

So you are talking about the Wahhabis?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

But you didn't answer the question.

My answer is I won't pretend that Saudi Arabian issues with feminism and female oppression is a Islam problem, or that it's representative of the majority of Muslim thought. This is a cultural problem, and it is a problem. But it won't be addressed in a healthy or productive way by saying 'Islam is bad.' That's neither accurate nor constructive.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Women in Islam - Wikipedia

Islam's basic view of women and men postulates a complementarity of functions: like everything else in the universe, humanity has been created in a pair (Sūrat al-Dhāriyāt, 51:49) – neither can be complete without the other.

Is this how non-Muslim females see themselves in an equal capacity to males? Seems like a clash to me.

 

[Mock Turtle]

My answer is I won't pretend that Saudi Arabian issues with feminism and female oppression is a Islam problem, or that it's representative of the majority of Muslim thought. This is a cultural problem, and it is a problem. But it won't be addressed in a healthy or productive way by saying 'Islam is bad.' That's neither accurate nor constructive.

No one has said that - let's keep some perspective on this.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No one has said that - let's keep some perspective on this.

Don't pretend that's not how the OP is framed. As a problem with Islam, full stop.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Don't pretend that's not how the OP is framed. As a problem with Islam, full stop.

I wasn't too bothered as to how the OP was framed, just on the nature of female equality within Islam - which seems to me as a clash with what Westerners would see as equality:

In Islamic cosmological thinking, the universe is perceived as an equilibrium built on harmonious polar relationships between the pairs that make up all things. Moreover, all outward phenomena are reflections of inward noumena and ultimately of God. The emphasis which Islam places upon the feminine/masculine polarity (and therefore complementarity) results, quite logically, in a separation of social functions. In general, a woman's sphere of operation is the home in which she is the dominant figure – and a man's corresponding sphere is the outside world. However, this separation is not, in practice, as rigid as it appears.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I wasn't too bothered as to how the OP was framed, just on the nature of female equality within Islam - which seems to me as a clash with what Westerners would see as equality:

In Islamic cosmological thinking, the universe is perceived as an equilibrium built on harmonious polar relationships between the pairs that make up all things. Moreover, all outward phenomena are reflections of inward noumena and ultimately of God. The emphasis which Islam places upon the feminine/masculine polarity (and therefore complementarity) results, quite logically, in a separation of social functions. In general, a woman's sphere of operation is the home in which she is the dominant figure – and a man's corresponding sphere is the outside world. However, this separation is not, in practice, as rigid as it appears.

Regardless of whether you were bothered, the framing of the OP is exactly why I said "My answer is I won't pretend that Saudi Arabian issues with feminism and female oppression is a Islam problem, or that it's representative of the majority of Muslim thought. This is a cultural problem, and it is a problem. But it won't be addressed in a healthy or productive way by saying 'Islam is bad.' That's neither accurate nor constructive."
I will also repeat: "But I think it's worth emphasizing that beginning a discussion or debate with 'your holy book REALLY says this, you are reading it wrong if you don't agree,' never goes anywhere productive. Just like with Christianity, or any religion which has holy books, Islam has socially liberal interpretations which are not especially rare. And those of us who are socially liberal should celebrate those interpretations, not say that they're wrong with the ultimate intent to get rid of entire religions. That's just strawmanning. Literally trying to supplant their interpretation with one you feel is easier to knock over."

 

[Mock Turtle]

Regardless of whether you were bothered, the framing of the OP is exactly why I said "My answer is I won't pretend that Saudi Arabian issues with feminism and female oppression is a Islam problem, or that it's representative of the majority of Muslim thought. This is a cultural problem, and it is a problem. But it won't be addressed in a healthy or productive way by saying 'Islam is bad.' That's neither accurate nor constructive."
I will also repeat: "But I think it's worth emphasizing that beginning a discussion or debate with 'your holy book REALLY says this, you are reading it wrong if you don't agree,' never goes anywhere productive. Just like with Christianity, or any religion which has holy books, Islam has socially liberal interpretations which are not especially rare. And those of us who are socially liberal should celebrate those interpretations, not say that they're wrong with the ultimate intent to get rid of entire religions. That's just strawmanning. Literally trying to supplant their interpretation with one you feel is easier to knock over."

You don't recognise a fundamental dilemma in Islam? Complementary is hardly equal is it?

 

[Sakeenah]

Well, let's see. Muslim police in Saudi Arabia forced young girls back into a burning building where they died terrible deaths, because they were not wearing Muslim attire. Would this happen in a country not dominated by Muslims? Of course not. 15 girls die as zealots 'drive them into blaze'

I'm familiar with this tragic event, it happened in 2002. There was national outrage, even the most conservative Muslim scholars spoke out against what happened. There was an inquiry by the Saudi government and it concluded that the religious educational authorities responsible for the school had neglected the safety of the pupils. The cleric in charge of the school was fired, and his office was merged with the Ministry of Education.

And Saudi Arabia is just one Muslim majority country out of the 50...you need to stop generalizing.

 

[Sakeenah]

I wasn't too bothered as to how the OP was framed, just on the nature of female equality within Islam - which seems to me as a clash with what Westerners would see as equality:

In Islamic cosmological thinking, the universe is perceived as an equilibrium built on harmonious polar relationships between the pairs that make up all things. Moreover, all outward phenomena are reflections of inward noumena and ultimately of God. The emphasis which Islam places upon the feminine/masculine polarity (and therefore complementarity) results, quite logically, in a separation of social functions. In general, a woman's sphere of operation is the home in which she is the dominant figure – and a man's corresponding sphere is the outside world. However, this separation is not, in practice, as rigid as it appears.

Why is this a problem?