My thoughts on Muslim men and Feminism

[icehorse]

When you uncritically bash Islam, Muslims, Muslim men, and so forth, you are playing right into the hands of those in the Middle East who say the West has no right to criticize them and screw Western liberal values as "insidious oppression". My guess is that liberal Muslim women, if asked, probably would not thank you for that. Like so many Westerners who "want to help", you need to do some serious thinking about just what helps and what does not help.

Nah, not liking these arguments, they're not holding much water. If you want to participate in the modern world, you're just gonna have to get used to having your faith criticized. As for what "liberal Muslim women" want, if they're not pushing for Islamic reform, then they are abandoning their sisters.

 

[icehorse]

Now show me a graph which indicates poverty levels, and Christian, Hindu and nontheist pops. Because I see a lot more than the Muslim focused tunnel vision going on here.

The graph on top is not associated with religion. As for poverty, let me guess, you're gonna claim that the Muslim world is impoverished "because Western interventions" ?

 

[icehorse]

There have been very few atheist dominated countries in history and none of them have good track record with human rights, including women's rights. This has little and less to do with the flexibility of atheist and nontheist philosophy and everything to do with politics and culturally held beliefs.

If I talked about how women have very little protection and high assault in India, a country dominated by Hindu, would you then say the issue is intrinsically about Hinduism? Or more cultural issues like poverty and other governance issues?

This is a false dilemma. How about comparing Muslim majority countries to secular countries?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The graph on top is not associated with religion. As for poverty, let me guess, you're gonna claim that the Muslim world is impoverished "because Western interventions" ?

Yes, that had a sizable impact on the area. Though it's not that simple insomuch as nothing in economics or politics is ever because of one reason.

This is a false dilemma. How about comparing Muslim majority countries to secular countries?

That's not what false dilemma means.
And that would be a false analogy. Comparing India wouldn't be. It's in the same region with a similar background, shares a lot of the same economic traits and natural resources.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Nah, not liking these arguments, they're not holding much water. If you want to participate in the modern world, you're just gonna have to get used to having your faith criticized. As for what "liberal Muslim women" want, if they're not pushing for Islamic reform, then they are abandoning their sisters.

I highly doubt most people with the OP history of argument want Islamic reform. Rather, they want the elimination of Islam. No amount of 'reform' would be satisfactory, because the view holds that Islam CAN'T be liberal or it isn't 'real Islam.' They are only an ally to 'their sisters' so long as they 'switch sides.'

 

[David1967]

Bah, highly misunderstood creatures. You'e nothing to worry about if you're not a cow or a rodent.

Two frames later that arm is in the mouth of the dragon. They have actually eaten children and drunk adults who have fallen asleep. I know. Not relevant to this thread but fun. Reptiles are my thing.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Two frames later that arm is in the mouth of the dragon. They have actually eaten children and drunk adults who have fallen asleep. I know. Not relevant to this thread but fun. Reptiles are my thing.

So have dogs.
I actually trust reptiles more than a lot of other animals because they're less prone to emotional outbursts and have a pretty strong body language once you're used to reading it. I worked hands on with gators for 10 years and never got bit. It could have happened,but honestly my mom got bit more by dogs and cats as a vet tech assist.

But yeah a bit off topic. xD

 

[oldbadger]

I will tell you straight up, I am not a fan of most Muslim men. The reason: Nearly all of them are misogynists.

Rubbish.

The Islamic religion, more than any other religion, promotes misogyny,

Rubbish.

............ feminists who refer to white men as trash ....

................... are bigots. Imagine that, writing off half the world's population in a sentence. Anyway, go on ......

instead of defending Muslim men, feminists should at least point out their abuse, as well as how the Islamic religion oppresses women.

I've never heard or read any extremist (or other) feminist defending 'Muslim men'. If extremist fems trash all men, like you say that they do, how come they defend some of them?


Your OP doesn't make sense...............

 

[icehorse]

That's not what false dilemma means.

I made a logical leap, I wasn't referring to what you quoted, and I suspect you know that and I'm not going to go back and unravel the thread for you.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I made a logical leap, I wasn't referring to what you quoted, and I suspect you know that and I'm not going to go back and unravel the thread for you.

Mmkay.

 

[Sunstone]

Nah, not liking these arguments, they're not holding much water.

Not for you, they aren't. But you seem to be weighing the argument on whether or not you "like" it.

 

[Sunstone]

90% of women in Pakistan, a Muslim-dominated country, face domestic violence. Source: To Be a Woman in Pakistan: Six Stories of Abuse, Shame, and Survival

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...x-stories-of-abuse-shame-and-survival/255585/

While your stat is informative, I am not persuaded that Islam is a main factor in such abuse. Pakistani culture seems to me a more likely source.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I think it's no more fundamental to Islam than violence against homosexuals is fundamental to Christianity. It exists in some Christian thought, maybe even a lot in some areas. But by evidence of the millions of Christians who have Christian beliefs that don't involve oppression of homosexuals, I'm forced to concede that it's not a Christian problem. To do otherwise would be a sort of No True Scottsman. 'Only those with X problematic belief are the REAL Y religion.'

As for the idea of complementary gender roles, I personally disagree with it. I think there's complementary personality traits but not typified by anything uniquely male or female.
However, the belief of complementary gender roles exists in quantity in philosophies both religious and non-religious. And I could find some pretty prominent atheist leaders who have similar thought. I'm concerned less with the thought and more with the action.

I'm not trying to say that Islam is much worse than any other problem area for feminists, but the complementary nature surely is just patriarchy which feminists have been trying to give the heave-ho for ages. That would be the elephant in the room, rather than a Straw man argument. Which the OP alludes to really.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Bah, highly misunderstood creatures. You'e nothing to worry about if you're not a cow or a rodent.

In the UK, on a TV programme, we saw a female zookeeper having a monitor lizard on a harness going for a stroll, and allowing itself to be petted - seemed to like both. They are misunderstood.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I highly doubt most people with the OP history of argument want Islamic reform. Rather, they want the elimination of Islam. No amount of 'reform' would be satisfactory, because the view holds that Islam CAN'T be liberal or it isn't 'real Islam.' They are only an ally to 'their sisters' so long as they 'switch sides.'

I want the elimination of all religions, so I am not picking on Islam particularly - just the area where it seems to be holding back progress more than most - and for females in this case. I think we should just call it as we see it - always.

 

[Mock Turtle]

While your stat is informative, I am not persuaded that Islam is a main factor in such abuse. Pakistani culture seems to me a more likely source.

But you must admit, when such things are backed by their religious beliefs, it is much harder for change to occur. As it has been so for many other religious beliefs too.

 

[Sunstone]

But you must admit, when such things are backed by their religious beliefs, it is much harder for change to occur. As it has been so for many other religious beliefs too.

That's certainly true, and worth bringing up. But major religions are big tents that almost invariably contain apparently contradictory teachings, as does Islam. People tend to take those contradictions and resolve them in ways favorable to their prejudices, but in almost every instance claiming to have discovered the "true" meaning of the teachings. This goes on in every major religion I am aware of.

Individual human nature is a major source of the "prejudices" that people bring with them to the interpretation of their religions. But don't discount culture as a source! Culture is an exceptionally powerful influence on human behavior, second in my book only to basic human nature, and often enough more determinate than individual preferences.

Awhile back, I read of a imam who was declaring that the "rod" you are permitted to use to beat your wife was purely a metaphor for showing her your displeasure with her in no uncertain terms. Naturally, he advertised that he'd discovered the true meaning of the Qur'an. Now I can't recall now in which country the man resided, but what do you think? Would he be more likely to live in Kabul, Afghanistan or in New York City? Culture can be a huge influence!

 

[Mock Turtle]

That's certainly true, and worth bringing up. But major religions are big tents that almost invariably contain apparently contradictory teachings, as does Islam. People tend to take those contradictions and resolve them in ways favorable to their prejudices, but in almost every instance claiming to have discovered the "true" meaning of the teachings. This goes on in every major religion I am aware of.

Individual human nature is a major source of the "prejudices" that people bring with them to the interpretation of their religions. But don't discount culture as a source! Culture is an exceptionally powerful influence on human behavior, second in my book only to basic human nature, and often enough more determinate than individual preferences.

Awhile back, I read of a imam who was declaring that the "rod" you are permitted to use to beat your wife was purely a metaphor for showing her your displeasure with her in no uncertain terms. Naturally, he advertised that he'd discovered the true meaning of the Qur'an. Now I can't recall now in which country the man resided, but what do you think? Would he be more likely to live in Kabul, Afghanistan or in New York City? Culture can be a huge influence!

Yep, human nature - and our experiences - will shape so many, and culture will undoubtedly do as much, so I'm not going to point the finger at any religion as being the dominant influence - for good or bad. I just feel, as with much authority, that many things lie unquestioned, or are unable to be questioned (as in religions perhaps), so as to hinder progress, and religions may be seen as doing so as much as they have helped us progress. If the imam was doing it in New York I suspect he might have it inserted somewhere rather rapidly, but no doubt it was here. Islam is getting a lot of stick because it tends to be the flavour of the month, or year, and no doubt much the same happened in the past concerning other religions. I'm really a not-amused bystander to all this.

 

[Sunstone]

I just feel...that many things lie unquestioned, or are unable to be questioned (as in religions perhaps), so as to hinder progress...

I think you're spot on there. One of the most common effects of religion is to stabilize cultures and societies. Just look at how some strains of American Christianity remain today the only major obstacle to the acceptance of LGBT+ folks as full citizens. Every other major impediment has been swept away by our changing culture and understanding. And yet, those strains of American Christianity are definitely products of American culture. Nordic Christianity, for instance, might be to some measure opposed to LGBT+ rights, but not nearly as virulently as American strains. At least so far as I've heard.

I'm far from being well informed about Islam, but it's my impression that Muslims in general are discouraged from critically examining their faith. What passes for "examination" is basically apologetics. You criticize only within the context of trying to figure out why everything about the religion is true or sound after all. That right there is the death of any true criticism. Again, I might be wrong about that.

Having said all that, it is simply an historical fact that Islam can change. It is not ossified, although change in it seems to me sometimes sluggish.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

90% of women in Pakistan, a Muslim-dominated country, face domestic violence.

So, your link references a Rueters poll which offers the following ordered list of ...

The world's most dangerous countries for women

1. Afghanistan ...
2. Congo ...
3. Pakistan ...
4. India ...
5. Somalia ...

Note that the predominantly Christian Congo precedes Pakistan on the list while Pakistan's predominantly Hindu neighbor, India, directly follows Pakistan on the list, and note further that Indonesia and Turkey are not listed.

Do you see any reason to think that Islam is not the predicate for global misogyny? Or is bigotry and white man's burden condescension too strong a lens?