Didn't say it was, but then I am not female. Perhaps some non-Muslim females might comment? It's more the complementary bit that might be a problem - doesn't equate to being equal I would have thought.
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My thoughts on Muslim men and Feminism
- Thread starter Rational Agnostic
- Start date
Didn't say it was, but then I am not female. Perhaps some non-Muslim females might comment? It's more the complementary bit that might be a problem - doesn't equate to being equal I would have thought.
See: The Real Roots of Sexism in the Middle East. Specifically ...
Some of the most important architects of institutionalized Arab misogyny weren't actually Arab. They were Turkish -- or, as they called themselves at the time, Ottoman -- British, and French. These foreigners ruled Arabs for centuries, twisting the cultures to accommodate their dominance. One of their favorite tricks was to buy the submission of men by offering them absolute power over women. The foreign overlords ruled the public sphere, local men ruled the private sphere, and women got nothing; academic Deniz Kandiyoti called this the "patriarchal bargain." Colonial powers employed it in the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and in South Asia, promoting misogynist ideas and misogynist men who might have otherwise stayed on the margins, slowly but surely ingraining these ideas into the societies.
Like Christianity, Islam is an expansive and living religion. It has moved with the currents of history, and its billion-plus practitioners bring a wide spectrum of interpretations and beliefs. The colonial rulers who conquered Muslim societies were skilled at pulling out the slightest justification for their "patriarchal bargain." They promoted the religious leaders who were willing to take this bargain and suppressed those who objected. This is a big part of how misogynistic practices became especially common in the Muslim world (another reason is that, when the West later promoted secular rulers, anti-colonialists adopted extreme religious interpretations as a way to oppose them). "They enshrined their gentleman's agreement in the realm of the sacred by elevating their religious family laws to state laws," anthropologist Suad Joseph wrote in her 2000 book, Gender and Citizenship in the Middle East. "Women and children were the inevitable chips with which the political and religious leaders bargained." Some misogynist practices predated colonialism. But many of those, for example female genital mutilation, also predated Islam.
Arabs have endured centuries of brutal, authoritarian rule, and this could also play a role. A Western female journalist who spent years in the region, where she endured some of the region's infamous street harassment, told me that she sensed her harassers may have been acting in part out of misery, anger, and their own emasculation. Enduring the daily torments and humiliations of life under the Egyptian or Syrian or Algerian secret police, she suggested, might make an Arab man more likely to reassert his lost manhood by taking it out on women.
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Like Christianity, Islam is an expansive and living religion. It has moved with the currents of history, and its billion-plus practitioners bring a wide spectrum of interpretations and beliefs. The colonial rulers who conquered Muslim societies were skilled at pulling out the slightest justification for their "patriarchal bargain." They promoted the religious leaders who were willing to take this bargain and suppressed those who objected. This is a big part of how misogynistic practices became especially common in the Muslim world (another reason is that, when the West later promoted secular rulers, anti-colonialists adopted extreme religious interpretations as a way to oppose them). "They enshrined their gentleman's agreement in the realm of the sacred by elevating their religious family laws to state laws," anthropologist Suad Joseph wrote in her 2000 book, Gender and Citizenship in the Middle East. "Women and children were the inevitable chips with which the political and religious leaders bargained." Some misogynist practices predated colonialism. But many of those, for example female genital mutilation, also predated Islam.
Arabs have endured centuries of brutal, authoritarian rule, and this could also play a role. A Western female journalist who spent years in the region, where she endured some of the region's infamous street harassment, told me that she sensed her harassers may have been acting in part out of misery, anger, and their own emasculation. Enduring the daily torments and humiliations of life under the Egyptian or Syrian or Algerian secret police, she suggested, might make an Arab man more likely to reassert his lost manhood by taking it out on women.
I think it's no more fundamental to Islam than violence against homosexuals is fundamental to Christianity. It exists in some Christian thought, maybe even a lot in some areas. But by evidence of the millions of Christians who have Christian beliefs that don't involve oppression of homosexuals, I'm forced to concede that it's not a Christian problem. To do otherwise would be a sort of No True Scottsman. 'Only those with X problematic belief are the REAL Y religion.'
As for the idea of complementary gender roles, I personally disagree with it. I think there's complementary personality traits but not typified by anything uniquely male or female.
However, the belief of complementary gender roles exists in quantity in philosophies both religious and non-religious. And I could find some pretty prominent atheist leaders who have similar thought. I'm concerned less with the thought and more with the action.
Trackdayguy
Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
WOW, they sound scary.
We're not that bad. We only bite a little.
It strikes me that we should rely on large polls rather than on an individual's isolated experience with a handful of Muslims.
This stretches one's credulity. A half billion men, nearly all of them misogynists? Seems all but impossible. Do you have evidence of this?
There are several points you make where you seem to have unwisely gone off the tracks. You might want to reconsider some of your views, question them at least.
I do agree with you, however, that humans have a right to engage in informed and fair-minded criticisms of cultures not their own. As I implied, I'm not sure that's entirely what you're doing in this case, but you're smart, you'll work it out in intellectually honest way in the end.
The notion we cannot or should not criticize other cultures even in informed and fair-minded ways would imply that culture is more essential to us than our basic humanity. If that's true, god help us in an age of nuclear weapons. Without a common humanity, there would be no objective reason to deny the claim that some humans are "lesser humans", and no moral reason why we shouldn't obliterate those who are "lesser humans than us".
Turns out the Quran seems to mirror reality pretty well... sadly.
[GALLERY=media, 7647]Secure-v7 by icehorse posted Aug 27, 2016 at 9:14 AM[/GALLERY]
We're not that bad. We only bite a little.
But it's the venom & bacteria which eventually do us in.
Hi there!
Most likely on several points, I'd judge. Mostly his mistakes are to grossly exaggerate, in my opinion. It is inescapable that that is intellectually irresponsible.
I don't know if this is relevant, but it's been discovered that the komodo dragon does indeed have venom.
Yes, I know...
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
The evidence is that the Qur'an clearly condones and encourages the abuse of women, ergo men who believe the Qur'an is true will also condone and encourage the abuse of women. Now, I understand that not all Muslims are literalists, and that's a good thing. Perhaps I was incorrect in stating that nearly all Muslim men are misogynists, though I would bet it is the majority of them. Abuse of women is worst in Islamic countries, and the evidence of this is clear. Also, let me be clear: I am not promoting hatred of Muslim men. I said that I am not a fan of them, but that doesn't mean I hate them. I do despise the ones who actually abuse women, however, I believe the percentage of those who actually abuse is much lower than the percentage who just hold misogynistic attitudes in general.
When you uncritically bash Islam, Muslims, Muslim men, and so forth, you are playing right into the hands of those in the Middle East who say the West has no right to criticize them and screw Western liberal values as "insidious oppression". My guess is that liberal Muslim women, if asked, probably would not thank you for that. Like so many Westerners who "want to help", you need to do some serious thinking about just what helps and what does not help.
I'm not a fan of such "logical arguments". You can make a "logical argument" that all Christians want to put homosexuals to death because the Bible tells them homosexuals are abominations, etc. What is needed here is scientific polling -- that is, rigorously collected and assessed empirical evidence. Nothing else will do. I know for a fact that Muslims have been polled on a variety of questions and issues. Perhaps even on this one.
Here you sound more reasonable, although you do not seem yet to have gotten over your fascination with presenting logical arguments as empirical evidence.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
90% of women in Pakistan, a Muslim-dominated country, face domestic violence. Source: To Be a Woman in Pakistan: Six Stories of Abuse, Shame, and Survival
I'm sure there are many other statistics and testimonies like this, but I do not have the time to research more at this point.
Now show me a graph which indicates poverty levels, and Christian, Hindu and nontheist pops. Because I see a lot more than the Muslim focused tunnel vision going on here.
There have been very few atheist dominated countries in history and none of them have good track record with human rights, including women's rights. This has little and less to do with the flexibility of atheist and nontheist philosophy and everything to do with politics and culturally held beliefs.
If I talked about how women have very little protection and high assault in India, a country dominated by Hindu, would you then say the issue is intrinsically about Hinduism? Or more cultural issues like poverty and other governance issues?
Bah, highly misunderstood creatures. You'e nothing to worry about if you're not a cow or a rodent.
We should just let down our guard, eh.Bah, highly misunderstood creatures. You'e nothing to worry about if you're not a cow or a rodent.