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My views on homosexuality

blackout

Violet.
because they were indoctrinated...as a youngling.


Well, yes, but that's not really choosing.

Some other poster said something about homosexuals
following the faith they have chosen (for themSelf).

My heart goes out to adults and young adults
suffering with the hatred
the indoctrination of their upbringing
levies against them.

At some point they need to choose to leave this indoctrination behind,
if they ever want to live healthy happy lives.
Sometimes it means choosing your Self,
and losing family and friends
in their rancid show of condemnation.

Truly sad what people do to even their own children
in the name of religion.
 

Dan4reason

Facts not Faith
eating too much and smoking is also wrong. Allah says in the Qur'an:

And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. 2:195

Do not harm your own self.

Basically homosexuality is wrong because Allah says so in the Qur'an. Allah created opposite sexes for a reason. Allah does not create anything without reason. Whether or not someone chooses to be gay is a different argument. Allah says we will be judged on our intentions.

I got what you said about the whole smoking and overeating thing although I don't know if every other Muslim interprets the Koran quite like you. Of course I'm no expert on islam so.... whatever.:cool:

I was mildly surprised at your whole answer to the whole homosexuality thing. Are you serious that the only reason you think that homosexuality is a horrible sin is because some guy in a book told you? I mean, don't you have logical arguments against it or something like that?:confused:

I mean, the only place to go from here is to talk about the Koran because you listed Allah as your only source for saying that homosexuality, so I will see if this source is credible. So the question is, how do you know this Allah character even exists, and if he does, how do you know he bans homosexuality, and if he did, then why should we listen to the guy? Its just his opinion right?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Well, yes, but that's not really choosing.

Some other poster said something about homosexuals
following the faith they have chosen (for themSelf).

My heart goes out to adults and young adults
suffering with the hatred
the indoctrination of their upbringing
levies against them.

At some point they need to choose to leave this indoctrination behind,
if they ever want to live healthy happy lives.
Sometimes it means choosing your Self,
and losing family and friends
in their rancid show of condemnation.

Truly sad what people do to even their own children
in the name of religion.

i just read a chapter in christopher hitchens book, 'god is not great' about the indoctrination of children...it really got my blood boiling
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I really hope you are joking. By this argument, Tiger Woods or Arnold Schwarzenegger should not be found in the wrong because they should not be held to repressing their "natural" tendency towards infidelity. And you think people that try to repress behaviors that they deem negative should not be tolerated? Really? You must be joking....

Excuse me? Are you really comparing infidelity to homosexuality? :areyoucra


Please give me an example of how a consequence is outlined by how healthy a belief is and how compatible it is with the believer.

There are people who got too anxious with Harold Camping's predictions of doom this last weekend. Some of them hurt themselves or even their own children. Many, many more took unwise financial decisions for the same reason. They did not know how to deal with such predictions and suffered for it.


I won't argue with this, and that is why people have a choice in determining what faith they are going to follow.

Except that they often don't, particularly when they are living with their parents. People are pressured into faiths they don't really believe in or even are compatible with way too often still.


No, protected from being forced to believe someone else's opinion like homosexuality being neither evil nor much of a choice.

Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. We do not get to choose how the world is by believing it to be something else. Homosexuality is still harmless and due some respect and protection, and homophoby is still rotten and evil, regardless of anyone's beliefs.


Who said I disregarded it or projected anything? I was responding to the comment that there is a "perfect" scientific explanation for homosexuality. I am still waiting for that example.

You will wait forever, as long as you keep that attitude.


You are correct, but you are assuming everyone believes the same thing as you. Whether you like it or not, some people believe that homosexuality is a threat to greater society and they have a right to that belief.

Nope, I am not assuming anything. It is a matter of fact, not opinion.


Everyone's beliefs need to be protected, no matter how backwards they may seem. They need the same protection from people that feel the believer must change his/her belief, as given to the person that feels homophoby is a problem.

What do you mean exactly? I thought the whole point of much of society, supposedly including religions, was to improve people's beliefs and make them healthier.

Is there any point at all in "protecting" backwards beliefs? Can you give me some example of how that is desirable or even how it is done?


I am not arguing with this statement. It is why organizations should allowed to be bigoted, if they choose to be. If the organization does not see value in it, it will change.

So you are assuming that organizations are usually under undue and unfair attack and should be protected from that?

Despite also claiming that they "should be allowed to be bigoted"? So is it just that you are very afraid of change then?

This is completely your opinion and I can not argue it.

Facts can't be argued against.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You may find it immoral, but it is acceptable if it is a tenant of their chosen belief. If the individual can't reconcile their activities within their belief

what if you were indoctrinated into it and constantly wrestled with homosexuality only to make you feel guilty for having these feelings in the 1st place, thinking there is something wrong with you...
i wonder how many children kill themselves because of this guilty feeling...
to me indoctrinating is a form of child abuse for this very reason, it is a disgusting act of control of another human being.
 

Raskolnikov

New Member
I really hope you are joking. By this argument, Tiger Woods or Arnold Schwarzenegger should not be found in the wrong because they should not be held to repressing their "natural" tendency towards infidelity. And you think people that try to repress behaviors that they deem negative should not be tolerated? Really? You must be joking....

Comparing infidelity with homosexuality is wrong. Tiger Woods should repress his natural tendency to sleep with other women because he made a commitment to one woman that he wouldn't sleep with anyone else. The act of infidelity is demonstrably wrong because you're breaking a promise. There is nothing demonstrably wrong with two consenting adults of the same sex having sex with each other.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Comparing infidelity with homosexuality is wrong. Tiger Woods should repress his natural tendency to sleep with other women because he made a commitment to one woman that he wouldn't sleep with anyone else. The act of infidelity is demonstrably wrong because you're breaking a promise. There is nothing demonstrably wrong with two consenting adults of the same sex having sex with each other.

yeah, what he said...
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
I honestly love seeing certain religious elements try and justify how wrong homosexuality is. A good chuckle watching people who're meant to preach love preach hate and bigotry.
 

Duck

Well-Known Member
I honestly love seeing certain religious elements try and justify how wrong homosexuality is. A good chuckle watching people who're meant to preach love preach hate and bigotry.

I would too except for the fact that those folks have an undue amount of influence politically, largely due to the fact that they are LOUD about preaching their hate and bigotry. An unfortunate fact of life is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so the louder and more obnoxious you are in proclaiming your 'love' for the sinner and 'hate' for the sin and 'defense' of marriage, the easier it is for the homophobia present in lawmakers to be voted into law.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
I would too except for the fact that those folks have an undue amount of influence politically, largely due to the fact that they are LOUD about preaching their hate and bigotry. An unfortunate fact of life is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so the louder and more obnoxious you are in proclaiming your 'love' for the sinner and 'hate' for the sin and 'defense' of marriage, the easier it is for the homophobia present in lawmakers to be voted into law.

I know, what a sick society we live in. The ironic thing is how much Americans love to proclaim about how great their separation of church and state is.
 

McBell

Unbound
So, are we to look at animals for our morality and ethics?
Who has made any such claim?

Animals are animals, they can do what they want.
To many things to list here...

If God has designed them to follow His ethics, they would not be killing other animals, and certainly some of them would not be killing their own young.
This is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.
Not to mention it being in direct conflict with the Bible.

But that is the beauty of nature that God created.
What is?
That humans are animals?

Humans, however, are a separate creation from animals.
Careful now.
Your elitist club mentality is starting to show.

They may have evolved from animals (depends on whether you're a creationist or not) but they still have been made separate from them by God, and made to rule over and look after them, becoming the stewards of the earth.
Ah, more elitist club wishful thinking.
 

Ceul

New Member
It doesn't work so well in practice though does it given the numerous articles posted here about politicians trying to bring creationism into classrooms?

I, honestly, don't know if the "creationism in classrooms" was ever brought into public schools (Government funded), but I know it's taught in a few private religious schools (of which, aren't part of the government). I can see something like this being passed in some of the Southern states, given their tendency to lean towards such fundamentalist Christian thinking (As can be seen with some of the changes the Texas School Board wants to do to textbooks). And there are current laws that exist from a Christian background, such as DOMA for instance. However, I'd say that having a doctrine that advocates "Separation of Church and State" is better than not having one at all. Otherwise, movements to actually stick creationism in classrooms on a national scale would, likely, go through with much more ease, and from no clear-text stating such a separation, minority religions and persons in the US would likely become the targets of laws created out of the Christian mindset (Christian, specifically, as it's the dominant religion of the country and has notable political sway).

For the LGBT community, the Christian involvement with politics is more worrying than to others due to the support a lot of bills (and support from even Presidents) to keep marriage as a separate institution, and even keeping adoption away from the LGBT community. Which, naturally, means that LGBT couples (Even Civil-Unioned ones) have less rights than the married counterparts, which in my viewpoint, is discrimination and this discrimination is held in Christian fundamentals and held together with the discredited "findings" by a psychologist named Paul Cameron. (I believe it was a "Paul"). In every legal debate I have seen, this psychologist's claims are often used (which were biased) and the fact that these opinions were discredited by the American Psychological Association, and a plethora of others, and the fact that Paul Cameron is often referred to as a mockery of psychology (basing that opinion on discussions I've had with psychologists, along with their articles at times) doesn't come up in these debates.

In a perfect world, there'd be no religious bias in politics. However, this isn't a perfect world and there is a notable bias in religion with Presidential candidates, Presidents, Congress members, Senators, Governors, Mayors, Judges, and so on and so forth, which leads to it being brought into politics (often times, citing pseudo-science as fact).

But, it is better to have it a bit more "controlled" than for it to run rampant. I've heard some leaders of those "traditional family" organizations say that they want a theocracy, and would want to kill all the "heretics" and all the "gays" or to separate all of them from society. (And would likely, bring back the witch hunts of the 1600s -- I believe that the author of the ludicrous book "The Pink Swastika" was one such person). So even though there is some religion in American politics, I'm happy that it's not as rampant as it could be.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
My view on homosexuality depends on one factor.

If homosexuality is a choice, then it's a sin.
If it isn't a choice, then it isn't a sin. God would not create someone who could not help but sin.

Could someone please provide some evidence proving that it isn't a choice or is a choice? I need to clear this up for myself.

And if it is a choice, does this mean that I think that homosexuals will go to Hell (if there is a Hell)? Certainly not. A homosexual would be just as much a sinner as everyone else, and has an equal chance of salvation.

Oh no... its a sin...

You already failed the test of being rational.

Sin... according to what god? At its base definition what is sin? A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule. Known to who and why? Is it a violation of morals? What is moral? Is it subjective? (Its not and atheists and theists can argue with me all day on that point... but clearly there is a giant argument that having sex with your hand or any other willing partner is not a moral argument depending on the circumstances of both partners and never are those circumstances affected by the sex of their sexual partner)

And shame on you for thinking so. More so your ridiculous jesus salvation fantasy is more ridiculous then your argument that the sex of the person you are having sex with matters to your god that created everything. Yeah those minutes or seconds mattered most to the guy who in 6 days created everything and sent his only son who had only an earthly mother to die on a cross to forgive women satisfying other women their sin of satisfying other women.... Or was it only men you were thinking of? Hmmm I dont recall a passage forbidding women to be with women... I wonder why women are with men at all in that case....

Clearly god said men dont lie with men... odd.... Women generally take a lot better care of themselves... weird...

So what was your argument? Even if gay sex is a choice jesus still forgives you and dont worry you're going to heaven? I am guessing you think Jesus will forgive everyone for anything in that case? Even me who denies the holy spirit? If that is the case then why call homosexual sexual relations a sin at all... god doesnt care... he knows its gonna happen and he forgives you... he knows your gonna eat shellfish... covet your neighbors wife and possibly steal and kill... dont worry... jesus came and all that is fine...

But now what? If it doesnt matter cause whatever your sin you will have equal chance at salvation with non sinners then why strive to not sin?

(hint) Cause god based morals are ridiculous and real reasons exist to be moral outside of archaic texts written 1000's of years ago by people who couldn't even imagine clicking reply on this forum.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Thanks Balance it also clarify my problem too. Hence proved it's a sin.

Expand on why its a sin.

Is this just pretentious ignorance or more common silly religious trolling... I don't see my frubals going up so... your thanks is what? Sarcasm? The exact opposite of how you feel? Are you being purposefully misleading and dishonest? Pure angelic behavior coming from someone who thinks the devil is real and is always trying to manipulate you...

I meant to address this before... but you said this:

Devil work is to deviate people from doing good work, Ignore GOD message to worship only him and don't include any other person. Be loyal to other, Don't tell lie but the only thing that help us leading to the right way to walk on GOD's path is to hold the rope of GOD strongly. When ever we loose the rope the devil catches us and take work of his own....

So what you don't have free will or you do and you can either follow god if you heard of god and know what god wants you to do or heard some interpretation of what god wants you do?

Really I don't see you doing much about ice giants... (Oh you believe in a different god?)

So how did you come to your absolute position on god, and which god is the true god and the true doctrine, and what does he want you to do, why is he is a he, and more directly how can you treat me so poorly and sarcastically and claim your god based position makes you more moral when it clearly doesn't and why do you believe in the devil and think I should and where is your empirical proof... :confused:

:facepalm:
 
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blackout

Violet.
My view on homosexuality depends on one factor.

If homosexuality is a choice, then it's a sin.
If it isn't a choice, then it isn't a sin. God would not create someone who could not help but sin.

Could someone please provide some evidence proving that it isn't a choice or is a choice? I need to clear this up for myself.

And if it is a choice, does this mean that I think that homosexuals will go to Hell (if there is a Hell)? Certainly not. A homosexual would be just as much a sinner as everyone else, and has an equal chance of salvation.

While it's good that you're (re)considering the matter,
I'm guessing that you might "delegate" bi-sexuals to opposite sex relationships?
Even when they happen to fall in love with someone of the same sex?
(as falling in love, is so often more of a 'happening', then a "choice")

I'm wondering what your "considerations" are, regarding bi-sexuals.
If you covered it already, I apologise.
It's a long thread.
 
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