Near Death experiences to atheist

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One other memorable moment ( one of hundreds) -

I was riding a motorcycle on a highway in the country, going down a steep hill in a long curve, no traffic, beautiful day and then ... The Voice says " Slow right down, NOW !"

I slowed down. Just around the bend was a jacknifed truck across the whole highway. Had I not slowed down right then I was surely going to be horribly injured or killed.

This kind of warning has happened numerous times.

So... while riding down a steep hill and approaching a blind (and therefore likely sharp as well, right?) curve, you realized it would be a good idea to slow down? I'd say this is evidence that you have common sense, not that you have psychic abilities.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I always thought we'd see Nietzsche sitting on a orbiting teacup as we sink into the Abyss.

Hitchens is the spiritual son of Nietzsche remember. Then Dawkins is the omnipresent ghost.

"In nomine Nietzsche, et Hitchens, et Dawkins Sancti" :liturgy:

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Hitchens is the spiritual son of Nietzsche remember. Then Dawkins is the omnipresent ghost.

"In nomine Nietzsche, et Hitchens, et Dawkins Sancti" :liturgy:

Credo quia absurdum.

 

[George-ananda]

My friend could do this as well, easily.



How can you be sure that this was not a detail added after the fact? We are too quick to believe such things rather than add them. Just think of memories, those exact paths in the brain will not be mapped perfectly again so we lose or change details, not to mention we simply make things up and add them to our memories.



Well when we give up being intellectually rigorous we end up believing in magic, as has been proving here in this thread. I, however, prefer not to (unless we mean the psychological kind )



As said, the tools were not described well. I can also describe the room, my body, etc from probably all my surgeries because it is not that hard to do. You never addressed if you have had surgeries or not, but as I said I have had many, most within about a year of each other. I can tell you what happened in that room, what went wrong, what it looked like, not because of my spidey senses but because it is explained to you. Who would be stupid enough to go under the knife having no idea what is going on. Besides that, most people will research the surgery, I (and my mother) sure did our homework and, if this was back in high school we could probably even guess what instruments were used. Again, if you just put your bias aside this is all actually annoyingly easy to explain away.



No no, you're describing your position. See, I'm the one who switched sides based on the overwhelming evidence. I believed in all sorts of hocus pocus that some simple college education easily cured.

Your explanation for Apophenia's experiences as well as the 101 other experiences discussed by skeptics on RF just sound absurdly desperate in an attempt to defend a worldview. And after a point I conclude they are unreasonable. It's like if there's any way you can possibly cobble together a materialistic explanation (and you always can with anecdotal stories) then you're like: That's it, disproved!!

 

[1137]

I and Dr. Sabom were impressed. But as I pointed out before, my threshold for being impressed is lower than your 'never been reached yet' threshold.

That's because I start with the premise that Consciousness/Brahman/God is fundamental and no collection of physical atoms and electrical current can have a unified self-consciousness. The patient's normal waking consciousness is just as super-physical to me.

Well there's another problem, your first premise is actually a conclusion, one that is unsupported.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your explanation for Apophenia's experiences as well as the 101 other experiences discussed by skeptics on RF just sound absurdly desperate in an attempt to defend a worldview. And after a point I conclude they are unreasonable. It's like if there's any way you can possibly cobble together a materialistic explanation (and you always can with anecdotal stories) then you're like: That's it, disproved!!

Would it work better if we used your approach?

There's plenty of evidence for my position and I'm completely prepared to tell you how wonderful it is. Just don't ask me any specific questions about what makes it so wonderful... trust me - it's very compelling.

 

[1137]

Your explanation for Apophenia's experiences as well as the 101 other experiences discussed by skeptics on RF just sound absurdly desperate in an attempt to defend a worldview. And after a point I conclude they are unreasonable. It's like if there's any way you can possibly cobble together a materialistic explanation (and you always can with anecdotal stories) then you're like: That's it, disproved!!

A 100% explanation denied yet you claim I'm clinging fideisticly to a world view. What a pathetic joke.

 

[George-ananda]

Before we go any further, just answer one thing: when has this ever happened?

Normally, when doctors find someone who's near death, they try to save their life, not stop to hook them up to the equipment needed to measure their brain activity.

This is an amazingly easy question so I wonder if I'm falling for a trap

In many NDE stories patients are hooked up to EEG's and whatever. Just read the main story discussed in this thread (link is on post #34).

 

[1137]

This is an amazingly easy question so I wonder if I'm falling for a trap

In many NDE stories patients are hooked up to EEG's and whatever. Just read the main story discussed in this thread (link is on post #34).

Yes and THEIR BRAINS ARE STILL FUNCTIONING! It's not rocket science.

 

[apophenia]

So... while riding down a steep hill and approaching a blind (and therefore likely sharp as well, right?) curve, you realized it would be a good idea to slow down? I'd say this is evidence that you have common sense, not that you have psychic abilities.

A major highway with a speed limit of 110 kph. No traffic. Beautiful clear weather.

No, not a sharp corner, a long sweeping bend.

No reason at all to assume a need to almost come to a stop.

Suddenly an inner voice says "Slow down right now". I come to a speed of about 20kph or less, and around the corner is a truck across the highway.

 

[George-ananda]

A 100% explanation denied yet you claim I'm clinging fideisticly to a world view. What a pathetic joke.

Your claim of a '100% explanation' is the only joke I see.

 

[1137]

Your claim of a '100% explanation' is the only joke I see.

Every little part of your belief can be explained beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm sorry but I can't fall in line with your philosophy of "this is true, accept it cause I want you to even though science and reason 100% contradict it".

And your inability to respond forces me to assume you've had no such surgeries so have no experience.

 

[idea]

Simple question: How can you explain the numerous reports of people that can see outside of their body when they die and come back to life? (To atheist)

They explain it the same way they explain anything else (spiritual experiences, talking to the dead, prophets, visions, revelations) by saying:
1.) it's a trick / a lie
2.) it's delusional

of coarse you cannot prove what anyone else really feels, or thinks - when someone says "I love you" do you believe them? when someone says anything that cannot be physically verified, do you believe them? Atheists have faith in nothing and no-one. They don't believe anyone - all they believe is the material world they can see and touch... you have to have faith to enter into the non-material world - the world of thoughts, and feelings, and trusting other people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A major highway with a speed limit of 110 kph. No traffic. Beautiful clear weather.

No, not a sharp corner, a long sweeping bend.

No reason at all to assume a need to almost come to a stop.

Suddenly an inner voice says "Slow down right now". I come to a speed of about 20kph or less, and around the corner is a truck across the highway.

You really aren't paying attention here.

Fortunately I was.

It was a long, sweeping bend, but the radius was tight enough that it didn't allow enough sight distance for you to stop in time for this truck without this "voice" telling you? Your story doesn't add up.

You said the speed limit was 110 - how fast were you going?

 

[1137]

It was a long, sweeping bend, but the radius was tight enough that it didn't allow enough sight distance for you to stop in time for this truck without this "voice" telling you? Your story doesn't add up.

You said the speed limit was 110 - how fast were you going?

Don't ask questions!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They explain it the same way they explain anything else (spiritual experiences, talking to the dead, prophets, visions, revelations) by saying:
1.) it's a trick / a lie
2.) it's delusional

I'd say that more often than not, it's

3) It's an honest mistake.

of coarse you cannot prove what anyone else really feels, or thinks - when someone says "I love you" do you believe them? when someone says anything that cannot be physically verified, do you believe them? Atheists have faith in nothing and no-one. They don't believe anyone - all they believe is the material world they can see and touch... you have to have faith to enter into the non-material world - the world of thoughts, and feelings, and trusting other people.

Do you think that every time someone says "I love you", it's true? Has nobody ever said it and lied, or said it and been mistaken?

 

[idea]

I'd say that more often than not, it's

3) It's an honest mistake.

that's just a polite way of saying it was delusional.

Do you think that every time someone says "I love you", it's true? Has nobody ever said it and lied, or said it and been mistaken?

I don't think anyone would ever say it if something called love did not actually exist.... sure people lie about it, people get confused by it, but we think about it and talk about it because it does actually exist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let's go back to what you said:

One other memorable moment ( one of hundreds) -

I was riding a motorcycle on a highway in the country, going down a steep hill in a long curve, no traffic, beautiful day and then ... The Voice says " Slow right down, NOW !"

I slowed down. Just around the bend was a jacknifed truck across the whole highway. Had I not slowed down right then I was surely going to be horribly injured or killed.

This kind of warning has happened numerous times.

Based on your account, something was limiting your sight distance... whether it was the radius of the curve, a crest in the road, fog, or whatever, you describe a situation where the combination of the speed you were going (whatever it was) and the available sight distance (however far you could see) were such that the minimum stopping sight distance at the speed you were going was farther than you could actually see.

If that was the case, then there would normally be all sorts of visual cues that you could pick up on and that would cause nervousness or discomfort. Whether that manifested itself as a voice in your head, butterflies, or something else, no supernatural explanation is needed. You have intuition about physics... congratulations; many people do.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't think anyone would ever say it if something called love did not actually exist.... sure people lie about it, people get confused by it, but we think about it and talk about it because it does actually exist.

Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

 

[apophenia]

Originally Posted by apophenia
We don't know **** about consciousness.

That is why we have science to explain it. It might take a while, but we'll get there.

A whole lot of people think science has already explained it. That attitude will never reveal anything. And those same people dismiss anything which doesn't suit their projections and imaginations of 'what science will one day explain'. They assume that their arbitrary beliefs are science.

Ironically, they believe that they are not believers.