Near Death experiences to atheist

[1137]

No one is psychically describing my room yet

How can you people explain that? Someone describing a room they veever been to nor heard a description, only visted it through astral projection.

I don't know you. I can likely describe what every friend of mine is up to.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

No one is psychically describing my room yet

How can you people explain that? Someone describing a room they veever been to nor heard a description, only visted it through astral projection.

You are sitting a chair of some sorts....in front of a light....there are words within the light....yes...yes its all comming to me now.

Are you by chance sitting in a chair in front of a computor? Or perhaps standing on a cell phone? More than likely there is a roof. Potentially carpet...or perhapse tile or even wood. But most definitly there is a floor.

 

[Me Myself]

You are sitting a chair of some sorts....in front of a light....there are words within the light....yes...yes its all comming to me now.

Are you by chance sitting in a chair in front of a computor? Or perhaps standing on a cell phone? More than likely there is a roof. Potentially carpet...or perhapse tile or even wood. But most definitly there is a floor.

Not sitting on a chair. Fail. No carpet either. The light in my I pad is to the lowest, and talkingn about low, my I pad is below me, not in front of me so the light would be coming from below.

And yours wasnt even a detailed description. Not by far.

I am sitting on my bed using my i pad mini. My floor has no carpet.

Commend you for trying though

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Not sitting on a chair. Fail. No carpet either. The light in my I pad is to the lowest, and talkingn about low, my I pad is below me, not in front of me so the light would be coming from below.

And yours wasnt even a detailed description. Not by far.

I am sitting on my bed using my i pad mini. My floor has no carpet.

Commend you for trying though

You start with extreme vague concepts that have high probability of being true. Starting with "Have you lost something recently that was precious to you?" "do you have a lost loved one?" "Have you felt as if someone was watching you"

ect. Then you read the cues they give you in the expression and then move in for less vague until you find an answer. More or less you trick them into giving you the information. Its fake psychic stuff 101.

 

[Me Myself]

You start with extreme vague concepts that have high probability of being true. Starting with "Have you lost something recently that was precious to you?" "do you have a lost loved one?" "Have you felt as if someone was watching you"

ect. Then you read the cues they give you in the expression and then move in for less vague until you find an answer. More or less you trick them into giving you the information. Its fake psychic stuff 101.

Have you noticed you were wrong yet?

I know what you tried to do, and you failed.

Accurate description of a room you ve never been wont work like that. You are describing a consultation with a medium, not an "hey! I saw you on astral projection the other day! You where on a room with *detailed description* "

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Have you noticed you were wrong yet?

I know what you tried to do, and you failed.

Accurate description of a room you ve never been wont work like that. You are describing a consultation with a medium, not an "hey! I saw you on astral projection the other day! You where on a room with *detailed description* "

also notice how there hasn't been a documented case of the latter? I did it as a joke and I thought the irony and sarcasm would break through. If you didn't notice it was obviously meant to be like that.

 

[1137]

So the "compelling" proof we have to ignore science and logical inference is

- A brain dead woman who wasn't brain dead

- The ability to know what happened during a surgery including details even though all is explained to the patient and likely researched

- A friend being able to guess what you're up to in your room

- Magically knowing to slow down while doing 110 mph and approaching a curve

Well, I'm convinced.

 

[apophenia]

You see I believed much like the OP and yourself, but I've tried my hardest to commit to accepting objective truth over subjective if need be. And so I ended up where I stand now. Maybe one day you'll stop shrooming and and understand this, though the damage may be too deep.

Actually that reminds me of a thread I want to start later.

Wrong again. On multiple counts.

I don't believe.

I acknowledge events which are unusual, without denying them or assuming any explanation. That is much more in line with the scientific method than your smug and specious 'debunking' - most of which seems to involve insult and expressions of assumed superiority, and no science. You merely appropriate the aura of science to give yourself some impression of credibility.

You are so busy 'proving' that I am an irrational believer, you have totally failed to notice that I have offered no explanation for any of the events I have described, and have on numerous occasions made it clear that I am not proposing any belief system. ( See my sig).

So your pretense of objectivity is failing you totally - your subjective impressions about me are not only false, but you are actively ignoring my clear statements on my view. From this subjectivity, and entrenched personal bias, you are constructing completely wrong impressions of me. More importantly - you are trying to gain some enjoyment from the insults you offer based on your subjective and false impressions. Which is both pathetic, and a characteristic feature of you.

I haven't had shrooms, or other psychedelics in decades. Apart from a dose of 2CB while it was legal about ten years ago. And anyway, there is no scientific evidence that using psychedelics occasionally has any negative effects on a person's intellectual capacity. Once again, you are trying to make your bias appear rational and objective.

So despite your heroic decision to renounce 'subjective truth', you are still a victim of it -you are hallucinating about who I am, what I believe, and what my habits are.And you are getting it all wrong.

You ignore how wrong you are, and how much of your pompous opinionated judgement of me is simply incorrect. Even when it is pointed out to you.

Like most fundamentalists, evidence has no effect on what you choose to believe.

The irony of this is clearly lost on you.

So what is the scientific field in which you work ? What are your scientific credentials ? Or are you just an RF dilettante who likes to appear as if you are into science ?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is an amazingly easy question so I wonder if I'm falling for a trap

In many NDE stories patients are hooked up to EEG's and whatever. Just read the main story discussed in this thread (link is on post #34).

I'll read yours if you read mine:

Scanning Dead Salmon in fMRI Machine Highlights Risk of Red Herrings | Wired Science | Wired.com

Apparently, the tests used to measure brain activity are subject to some noise and error.

 

[Me Myself]

Wrong again. On multiple counts.

I don't believe.

I acknowledge events which are unusual, without denying them or assuming any explanation. That is much more in line with the scientific method than your smug and specious 'debunking' - most of which seems to involve insult and expressions of assumed superiority, and no science. You merely appropriate the aura of science to give yourself some impression of credibility.

You are so busy 'proving' that I am an irrational believer, you have totally failed to notice that I have offered no explanation for any of the events I have described, and have on numerous occasions made it clear that I am not proposing any belief system. ( See my sig).

So your pretense of objectivity is failing you totally - your subjective impressions about me are not only false, but you are actively ignoring my clear statements on my view. From this subjectivity, and entrenched personal bias, you are constructing completely wrong impressions of me. More importantly - you are trying to gain some enjoyment from the insults you offer based on your subjective and false impressions. Which is both pathetic, and a characteristic feature of you.

I haven't had shrooms, or other psychedelics in decades. Apart from a dose of 2CB while it was legal about ten years ago. And anyway, there is no scientific evidence that using psychedelics occasionally has any negative effects on a person's intellectual capacity. Once again, you are trying to make your bias appear rational and objective.

So despite your heroic decision to renounce 'subjective truth', you are still a victim of it -you are hallucinating about who I am, what I believe, and what my habits are.And you are getting it all wrong.

You ignore how wrong you are, and how much of your pompous opinionated judgement of me is simply incorrect. Even when it is pointed out to you.

Like most fundamentalists, evidence has no effect on what you choose to believe.

The irony of this is clearly lost on you.

So what is the scientific field in which you work ? What are your scientific credentials ? Or are you just an RF dilettante who likes to appear as if you are into science ?

How was the thing sbout the room? What did your friend describe? S/he hadnt visited the room previously? Did s/he describe someing you usually do at that hour or some action you did that could not have been easily guessed by knoown patterns?

 

[George-ananda]

You start with extreme vague concepts that have high probability of being true. Starting with "Have you lost something recently that was precious to you?" "do you have a lost loved one?" "Have you felt as if someone was watching you"

ect. Then you read the cues they give you in the expression and then move in for less vague until you find an answer. More or less you trick them into giving you the information. Its fake psychic stuff 101.

Here's the obvious logical error you want us to accept.......

Because Cold Reading techniques exist then every time someone has an accurate impression they were just doing Cold Reading.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hey, George - I looked at the page you linked to in post 34. I also looked at the Wikipedia article it linked to, which gives a timeline of the procedure and the NDE (which you can find here). Here are some key points I took from it:

- the patient was brought into the operating room awake and with her eyes open, so she had the opportunity to see the equipment and instruments before her NDE.

- the events she says she saw from outside her body that can be confirmed (e.g. the pitch of the drill or things that the nurse said) happened either before or after the time when her EEG showed no activity, not during the time of EEG inactivity.

What do you make of this?

Do you have any actual examples where people were confirmed to have actually experienced things when they had no brain activity?

 

[Me Myself]

Here's the obvious logical error you want us to accept.......

Because Cold Reading techniques exist then every time someone has an accurate impression they were just doing Cold Reading.

Not only that, he tried and failed.

It was priceless.

 

[1137]

Here's the obvious logical error you want us to accept.......

Because Cold Reading techniques exist then every time someone has an accurate impression they were just doing Cold Reading.

There's also guesswork and plain cheating.

 

[George-ananda]

Hey, George - I looked at the page you linked to in post 34. I also looked at the Wikipedia article it linked to, which gives a timeline of the procedure and the NDE (which you can find here). Here are some key points I took from it:

- the patient was brought into the operating room awake and with her eyes open, so she had the opportunity to see the equipment and instruments before her NDE.

- the events she says she saw from outside her body that can be confirmed (e.g. the pitch of the drill or things that the nurse said) happened either before or after the time when her EEG showed no activity, not during the time of EEG inactivity.

This was already brought out a few pages back. Yes, during the time of 'brain death' she was (allegedly) meeting dead relatives on the other side. That of course can't be confirmed or denied by physical evidence. So I did state the story was not as I great as I originally thought (how big of me, eh). But I still overall think the story is very strong.

Do you have any actual examples where people were confirmed to have actually experienced things when they had no brain activity?

I haven't done any further research since.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Here's the obvious logical error you want us to accept.......

Because Cold Reading techniques exist then every time someone has an accurate impression they were just doing Cold Reading.

No. I'm saying there has never been a recorded and viable example of what has happened that isn't met with high amounts of scrutiny. I was showing you (well technically someone else) the hilarity of it though humor. Apparently neither of you get it which is a little sad.

 

[apophenia]

How was the thing sbout the room? What did your friend describe? S/he hadnt visited the room previously? Did s/he describe someing you usually do at that hour or some action you did that could not have been easily guessed by knoown patterns?

Here is exactly what happened -

I was working as a nurse in a psychiatric hospital (1975). I was living in the male nurse dormitory. My friend (Kerry) had never been there, nor had I ever described the room to her.

I finished a shift at 11 pm, and went to my room. I had a small hash spliff ( I report this for the sake of completeness), and sat on the floor beside my bed to play my sitar.

I began thinking about Kerry while I played. ( I was besotted with her ). I had no unusual experience myself, just a nice improv session and warm feelings toward Kerry, and then went to bed.

I had a 7 am start the next morning. Just before 7, while I was having a coffee in the ward staff room, I was told there was a phone call for me. It was Kerry. As soon as I answered, she said "What happened last night ?". I had no idea what she meant. She told me that she had visited me in my room, and had a drawing to show me (she is a very good artist). She wanted to see me asap.

That night, I rode to her house (about 20 miles away). She showed me the drawing she had done of my room, and told me where I was sitting (she knew I was playing sitar). She was particularly aware of where the mirror in the room was. She also had a query about whether there were mirrors on the main wardrobe doors.

In fact, the wardrobe door handles were convex polished metal. Kerry explained that she was always freaked out by mirrors when she was out of her body - I think that was because having no reflection was unnerving to her, if I remember that detail correctly.

She told me that she went to bed just before 11pm, and just as she was dozing off, she 'felt a tug' and lifted out of her body. She passed through her roof, and flew across town. She saw a large collection of buildings and entered one, and saw me in my room.

This sort of thing was not so unusual for her, she had many out-of-body experiences.

On one other occasion, she returned from a weekend trip in the country, and told me that she could hear my sitar playing echoing around the valley (100 miles away) on Saturday morning. At the time, I was giving an impromptu performance for some friends who had requested it. There was no way she could have known that. No plans had been made, and the people I was with were not part of her social group.

It was all probably a dry-cleaning bag filled with helium. :areyoucra LOL

Now, Doors will probably start telling me that I am a believer of irrational nonsense, but I had, and have, no idea how either of those experiences happened. I was not seeking any such experience, nor do I have a belief system about such experiences.

But they happened.

 

[1137]

I acknowledge events which are unusual, without denying them or assuming any explanation. That is much more in line with the scientific method than your smug and specious 'debunking' - most of which seems to involve insult and expressions of assumedsuperiority, and no science. You merely appropriate the aura of science to give yourself some impression of credibility.

So you believe science says "wow, that's interesting, let's not try and figure it out"? I am using science to back logical inference, because both are objective if we account for bias. Bias wise I would be a hardcore monist practicing a Thelemic like version of Kabbalah, but as I said I decided to look for objective truth.

You are so busy 'proving' that I am an irrational believer, you have totally failed to notice that I have offered no explanation for any of the events I have described, and have on numerous occasions made it clear that I am not proposing any belief system. ( See my sig).

No I noticed, I just figured I would offers some for you. However, it is clear that you are not interested in explanations (it takes away the magic) and I can respect that. Strange though that you continue the debate when you don't care for explanation...

So your pretense of objectivity is failing you totally - your subjective impressions about me are not only false, but you are actively ignoring my clear statements on my view. From this subjectivity, and entrenched personal bias, you are constructing completely wrong impressions of me. More importantly - you are trying to gain some enjoyment from the insults you offer based on your subjective and false impressions. Which is both pathetic, and a characteristic feature of you.

This isn't about you, if you can believe that (ironically saying I'm all arrogant and stuff). This is about the examples you are bringing forward. Also, it is really quite amusing that you criticize me for offering subjective insults then insult me based on your subjective perception of me

I haven't had shrooms, or other psychedelics in decades. Apart from a dose of 2CB while it was legal about ten years ago. And anyway, there is no scientific evidence that using psychedelics occasionally has any negative effects on a person's intellectual capacity. Once again, you are trying to make your bias appear rational and objective.

Did you really just claim that there is no scientific evidence that past experiences effect who we have become, what are views are, etc?! This is after claiming science says "wow, that's interesting, let's not try and figure it out". Obviously I am wasting my time.

So despite your heroic decision to renounce 'subjective truth', you are still a victim of it -you are hallucinating about who I am, what I believe, and what my habits are.And you are getting it all wrong.

Renouncing subjective truth? No no no why in the world would I possibly do that? Being able to distinguish between objectivity and subjectivity, sure. I would hardly consider myself an occultist (see my title) if I renounced subjective truth. You really have no ability to see you are guilty of the same things you are accusing me of.

You ignore how wrong you are, and how much of your pompous opinionated judgement of me is simply incorrect. Even when it is pointed out to you.

Well I certainly see how against insulting others you are...
I could not care less about you, your experiences are what are called into question.

Like most fundamentalists, evidence has no effect on what you choose to believe.

Um, have you done any research at all on these topics? I am presenting the evidence, the very evidence that forced me to change my views of objective reality. Evidence has every effect on what I choose to believe objectively, which in turn changes my subjective views as well.

I pause here to congratulate you since I just now realize how well you used self victimization to draw me away from making you question your views. :clap

So what is the scientific field in which you work ?

Anthropology and psychology.

 

[1137]

Now, Doors will probably start telling me that I am a believer of irrational nonsense, but I had, and have, no idea how either of those experiences happened. I was not seeking any such experience, nor do I have a belief system about such experiences.

But they happened.

Why would I call you irrational for sharing a story when, as you even point out, you take no stance on explanation wise? Haha, you really are quite aggressive aren't you.

I know you are not interested in explanation, (you sure do get very aggressive towards the non-mystical ones though), so I'll just point out it seems you play the sitar a decent amount.

 

[apophenia]

Why would I call you irrational for sharing a story when, as you even point out, you take no stance on explanation wise?

Good question. See if you can answer it for yourself.