Near Death experiences to atheist

[1137]

Some fun relevant links about the brain in general believer won't bother reading:

Scientists propose explanation for out-of-body experiences

PLOS ONE: Placebos without Deception: A Randomized Controlled Trial in Irritable Bowel Syndrome

The God Helmet - How it works.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...njury-the-dark-side-personality-change-part-i

 

[1137]

Good question. See if you can answer it for yourself.

The answer is I didn't call you irrational...

 

[Me Myself]

The answer is I didn't call you irrational...

Yu are calling his conclusions/process irrational.

I wouldnt see much wrong wi that provided you knew how he came to them.

In any case, what he describes seems to be beyond guesswork. Wouldnt you agree?

 

[1137]

Yu are calling his conclusions/process irrational.

I wouldnt see much wrong wi that provided you knew how he came to them.

In any case, what he describes seems to be beyond guesswork. Wouldnt you agree?

Well wait, he said he accepted no explanations. Funny how contradictions arise when reason is abandoned.

I'll need to re-read his story in the morning.

 

[Me Myself]

Well wait, he said he accepted no explanations. Funny how contradictions arise when reason is abandoned.

I'll need to re-read his story in the morning.

You mean when he said he didnt offer explanations?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Some fun relevant links about the brain in general believer won't bother reading:

Scientists propose explanation for out-of-body experiences

PLOS ONE: Placebos without Deception: A Randomized Controlled Trial in Irritable Bowel Syndrome

The God Helmet - How it works.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...njury-the-dark-side-personality-change-part-i

Science is not true. God told me so in an out of body experience

 

[Sha'irullah]

Some fun relevant links about the brain in general believer won't bother reading:

Scientists propose explanation for out-of-body experiences

PLOS ONE: Placebos without Deception: A Randomized Controlled Trial in Irritable Bowel Syndrome

The God Helmet - How it works.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...njury-the-dark-side-personality-change-part-i

Being a Deist, the lines of science and spirituality are entirely mutual and blurred beyond belief. What you have provided does not disprove or claim any validity on what these experiences are.

 

[apophenia]

You mean when he said he didnt offer explanations?

That doesn't matter to Doors.

The current absence of a scientific explanation is a good enough reason for hurling feces.

This, even though I do not suggest either an explanation, or a dismissal of science.

Apparently, even if a person has an education and appreciation of science, is generally skeptical, and is proposing no mystical theories, Doors still has sufficient grounds for condescension and insulting them, by virtue of the fact that his model can't include unexplained phenomena.

Doors just doesn't get that there may well be a scientific explanation eventually. More to the point, why let that stand in the way of 'justifiable ridicule' ?

Let him have his fun. No skin off my nose.

 

[Me Myself]

That doesn't matter to Doors.

The current absence of a scientific explanation is a good enough reason for hurling feces.

This, even though I do not suggest either an explanation, or a dismissal of science.

Apparently, even if a person has an education and appreciation of science, is generally skeptical, and is proposing no mystical theories, Doors still has sufficient grounds for condescension and insulting them, by virtue of the fact that his model can't include unexplained phenomena.

Doors just doesn't get that there may well be a scientific explanation eventually. More to the point, why let that stand in the way of 'justifiable ridicule' ?

Let him have his fun. No skin off my nose.

Yah the mushrooms thing did sound condescending and belitling.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Simple question: How can you explain the numerous reports of people that can see outside of their body when they die and come back to life? (To atheist)

Neurology, for one thing. Try reading this, or any number of similar articles-

psychologytoday.com/blog/happines-in-world/201105/the-neurology-near-death-experiences

The short answer is that, for one, we don't just jump from "X is unexplained" to "X is because of God". This is a fallacy of reasoning known as argumentum ad ignorantium- it does not follow from the fact that X is unexplained that God must have done, or that Gandalf must have done it, or fairies must have done it, or anything else.

Atheists can abide unexplained occurances. But as it happens, NDE's are not so hard to explain as many assume. Browse the article and you will see.

 

[1137]

That doesn't matter to Doors.

The current absence of a scientific explanation is a good enough reason for hurling feces.

This, even though I do not suggest either an explanation, or a dismissal of science.

Apparently, even if a person has an education and appreciation of science, is generally skeptical, and is proposing no mystical theories, Doors still has sufficient grounds for condescension and insulting them, by virtue of the fact that his model can't include unexplained phenomena.

Doors just doesn't get that there may well be a scientific explanation eventually. More to the point, why let that stand in the way of 'justifiable ridicule' ?

Let him have his fun. No skin off my nose.

I really didn't think the fact I'm simply offering a scientific and logical explanation was so unbelievably hard to comprehend. I'm fine that you don't take a position, but this isn't a fence sitting thread. You take everything so personally and I can't figure out why.

This isn't about you, get over it.

 

[1137]

Neurology, for one thing. Try reading this, or any number of similar articles-

psychologytoday.com/blog/happines-in-world/201105/the-neurology-near-death-experiences

The short answer is that, for one, we don't just jump from "X is unexplained" to "X is because of God". This is a fallacy of reasoning known as argumentum ad ignorantium- it does not follow from the fact that X is unexplained that God must have done, or that Gandalf must have done it, or fairies must have done it, or anything else.

Atheists can abide unexplained occurances. But as it happens, NDE's are not so hard to explain as many assume. Browse the article and you will see.

This isn't going to help here. Yes, the explanation that is fully logically supported by scientific fact is probably right, but we're dealing with a fideist who doesn't care about fact or logic and a fence sitter (though I'm sure if we went into things like evolution vs creationism he'd prove inconsistent).

 

[Enai de a lukal]

That's unfortunate. Maybe one chooses to reject the scientific explaination, but the jump from "NDE's are unexplained" (which is a false claim to begin with) to "NDE's are proof of God/a soul/heaven/whatever supernatural mumbo-jumbo" is still an argumentum ad ignorantium fallacy of reasoning, and is non-sequitur.

 

[1137]

That's unfortunate. Maybe one chooses to reject the scientific explaination, but the jump from "NDE's are unexplained" (which is a false claim to begin with) to "NDE's are proof of God/a soul/heaven/whatever supernatural mumbo-jumbo" is still an argumentum ad ignorantium fallacy of reasoning, and is non-sequitur.

Oh I don't disagree, but once you reject the use of logic you don't care about fallacy

 

[Me Myself]

I really didn't think the fact I'm simply offering a scientific and logical explanation was so unbelievably hard to comprehend. I'm fine that you don't take a position, but this isn't a fence sitting thread. You take everything so personally and I can't figure out why.

This isn't about you, get over it.

It wasnt that. It was the general attitude in conjunction with the mushrooomer thing.

I am still curious to know where he said he accepted no explanations.

Also curious about your eexplanation of his even with the room.

 

[1137]

It wasnt that. It was the general attitude in conjunction with the mushrooomer thing.

Attitude? No no, we must take into consideration when one's mindset has been partially molded by hallucinations. Now he may argue that somehow psychedelics magically have no effect on who we have become or anything, but we know better than that and that all experiences affect us.

I am still curious to know where he said he accepted no explanations.

Now, Doors will probably start telling me that I am a believer of irrational nonsense, but I had, and have, no idea how either of those experiences happened. I was not seeking any such experience, nor do I have a belief system about such experiences.

And I am not saying otherwise. I was simply offering an explanation fully supported by science and reason.

Also curious about your eexplanation of his even with the room.

He obviously has habits, his friend knows him, he was intoxicated so details are skewed, not to mention we simply change memories.

 

[Alceste]

I have never had a dream where I was looking down on my sleeping body. Why do near death people so frequently report this is the question.

I have lots of OBE dreams.

They're dreams.

When I have induced an OBE like experience consciously it has been the result of deep meditation. I can shut down my nervous system until I can't feel anything. It feels like I'm floating. The rest is creative visualization.

 

[George-ananda]

I have lots of OBE dreams.

They're dreams.

When I have induced an OBE like experience consciously it has been the result of deep meditation. I can shut down my nervous system until I can't feel anything. It feels like I'm floating. The rest is creative visualization.

Seriously, how do you know they weren't actually OBEs?

And since we can't see/measure what's physical/etheric/astral your experiences are unexplained aren't they.

 

[Alceste]

This is the strange conundrum for me. I am a skeptic. I do not 'believe' anything about astral and etheric bodies. But I have a collection of experiences which involve confirmation from outside me, and which are simply not possible if consciousness is limited to the physical brain, unless we include the idea of amazing capabilities of the human brain which we currently can't explain.

I have been visited by a friend 'astral traveling', who drew a precise picture of my room (she had never been there physically, nor had I ever described it), and where I was in it when she visited, for example. I have 'traveled' to other places and seen precisely what was happening there - and my cheating partner 'knew' I was there ! - what I saw was accurate in every detail, despite me never having even met the dude she was with before, I was able to describe him in detail. I have cursed a guy who threatened me with death, and he was immediately hospitalised with inexplicable anemia and bleeding from the kidneys. He stayed that way (for 6 weeks) until he contacted me and asked for my forgiveness, even though I had not told him I had cursed him. Then he immediately recovered. I have put a 'magic circle' around my unborn daughter 4 weeks into her gestation, and the doctors at her scheduled abortion simply changed their minds for no apparent reason and refused to carry out the abortion - the mother was shocked and angry as we left the clinic ( I did not attempt to stop her, I just maintained a mantra and my intention, which was unassailable. I had no contact whatsoever with the doctors or staff, I sat in a public waiting room). After more 'activity' on my part a few days later,she decided to go ahead with the pregnancy. And, btw, a painting of the four-armed form of krishna had 'come to life' a few days previously and told me that I need not worry, or argue, and that my child would certainly survive.
And lots of other stuff.
I am unable to explain these things - or to deny them.Which is a weird position to be in, but such is life.

So, I certainly have 'reason to assume otherwise'.

Much of that kind of stuff has happened to me too, but I have a better explanation that is not inconsistent with skepticism. The trick is to explain as much atypical experience with as little mechanism as possible and add nothing extra into the mix. It seems likely to me that the processes that spark conscious awareness have some kind of quantum aspect we don't yet understand.

Also it helps to recognize that we are story telling apes. Our brains can't help but turn an atypical experience into an amazing story, and the story gets a little more amazing with every retelling. Even every recollection. We don't have a perfect filing system for memories. Every time we retrieve one it becomes a little more corrupted.

Sure doesn't feel that way though. It feels like all our amazing stories about our atypical experiences are a mounting body of evidence for some great mysterious force. Really, if you had that anomalous brain condition where you can remember absolutely everything, you wouldn't have any stories.

 

[Me Myself]

Much of that kind of stuff has happened to me too, but I have a better explanation that is not inconsistent with skepticism. The trick is to explain as much atypical experience with as little mechanism as possible and add nothing extra into the mix. It seems likely to me that the processes that spark conscious awareness have some kind of quantum aspect we don't yet understand.

Also it helps to recognize that we are story telling apes. Our brains can't help but turn an atypical experience into an amazing story, and the story gets a little more amazing with every retelling. Even every recollection. We don't have a perfect filing system for memories. Every time we retrieve one it becomes a little more corrupted.

Sure doesn't feel that way though. It feels like all our amazing stories about our atypical experiences are a mounting body of evidence for some great mysterious force. Really, if you had that anomalous brain condition where you can remember absolutely everything, you wouldn't have any stories.

Just clarifying that he hasnt offered explanations. Just said we dont ow everything about consciousness yet, and he doesnt know how to explain that situation, basically.