Near Death experiences to atheist

[1137]

I don't believe the universe came from nothing but I do like your epic and hypocritical fail.

Also I have had similar experiences and fully believe something happened. Again, fail.

 

[apophenia]

Also I have had similar experiences and fully believe something happened. Again, fail.

Really ? Tell us about your 'similar' experiences, and exactly what you mean by "fully believe something happened".

 

[Alceste]

My friend was not under the effects of drugs either. And her drawing was totally accurate, her details regarding the time were spot on, and she was so impressed by what had happened that she rang me at the crack of dawn to tell me about it.

My friends who contacted me after the K-space event - ditto. One of them was sleeping at the time, as I said, and woke up in an 'out-of-body' state hearing my bass playing. He also rang the next day to tell me this because he was shocked.

Maybe quantum physics will explain it one day. Or neurophysiology plus quantum physics.

Personally, I am surprised that someone could believe that the universe spontaneously appeared from nothing, and that inanimate matter could come to life and start writing poetry, but the same person can't imagine that it is possible that this kind of communication could take place.

I guess the difference is - their 'beliefs' are supported by men in white coats with clipboards and titles, and as Milgram and Zimbardo's experiment made clear, that makes all the difference.

And just for the record - the Big Bang theory is after all only a belief, supported by an interpretation of very little data. Yet somehow, these 'objective' rationalists are certain they know the truth. They actually know squat, but love indulging themselves in a sense of pride and achievement for discovering the truth about the universe. And really, for the dilettantes we have here in this thread, that is just an ego trip in the final analysis.

I have real experience of something, and accept that for the time being at least, there is no scientific explanation.

My detractor knows nothing about that experience, but is certain it could not have happened, because he has chosen to believe things he cannot verify.

And yet he believes he stands for objectivity. Oh, the irony.

Who are you talking about? Me? I'm just saying that when it comes to these atypical experiences we've both had, we can't really rule out the possibility that the story is getting a little better every time we tell it. I'm not saying my recollection isn't totally lucid, I'm just saying that lucid =/= factual, and that as a reasonable person with a bit of a grasp of human psychology, it's certainly possible that I'm factually incorrect about some detail or other, because that detail doesn't fit the narrative my psyche prefers. That's maybe a tough thing for the ego to grapple with, but it is certainly possible, so it can't be ruled out.

I also think we'll eventually learn why these things happen in quantum mechanics, psychology or neurophysics. I'm exactly as convinced of the accuracy of your story as I am of my own, so try not to take it personally.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I agree. My point is they would show the atheist/materialist/physicalist worldview must be discarded.

Um... That doesn't follow either (that would fall under the "anything else" category).
This, and all similar inferences, are examples of argumentum ad ignorantium.

Besides, the premise is false to begin with.

Glad I don't subscribe to an argument type that has 'ad ignorantium' in it

Apparently you have a short memory- you've already forgotten the line you typed directly above!!! (the argumentum ad ignorantium- also known as an "argument from ignorance")

We are all aware here by now there are neurological and spiritual explanations out there. Perhaps the biggest argument against a strictly neurological explanation is the 'alleged' (see how fair I am) ability to know of events they couldn't have reasonably been known through normal channels.

And if such an instance was documented, that would constitute some evidence in favor of a non-physical explanation. So far as I know, this remains an allegation, nothing more. (see how fair I am)

 

[1137]

Really ? Tell us about your 'similar' experiences, and exactly what you mean by "fully believe something happened".

Why? They're personal subjective experiences that have no external value? I did have an intense mystical experience that actually changed me despite being nothing but the result of brain activity. I fully believe my experiences happened same as yours, it doesn't mean I reject science and reason instead claiming them as magic. I accept the view fully supoorted by science and logical inference. It might not be a fully proven "fact" but that won't make me 360 and claim magic our whatever despite the evidence.

 

[Me Myself]

Why? They're personal subjective experiences that have no external value? I did have an intense mystical experience that actually changed me despite being nothing but the result of brain activity. I fully believe my experiences happened same as yours, it doesn't mean I reject science and reason instead claiming them as magic. I accept the view fully supoorted by science and logical inference. It might not be a fully proven "fact" but that won't make me 360 and claim magic our whatever despite the evidence.

Are you suggesting apophenia has made a claim about magic or are you being defensive towards someone else?

 

[1137]

Are you suggesting apophenia has made a claim about magic or are you being defensive towards someone else?

Neither, I'm simply making a statement.

 

[Me Myself]

Neither, I'm simply making a statement.

Do you find anyone here that has "rejected" "science and reason" ? Why would you think on making such a statement?

The circumstance described to you wasnt a subjective experience while meditation or something, it was someone coming with a detailed drawing of a room they never been to physically nor have seen the room or been described the room. There was a material physical drawing and amaterial physical room. If you want to say all of that is just a subjective experience keep in mind this things are as objective as it gets.

Unless you dont believe apophenia, which in itself I wouldnt recriminate at all, youu have every right to be skeptic, but the circumstance he describes seem way beyond random coincidence.

 

[1137]

Do you find anyone here that has "rejected" "science and reason" ? Why would you think on making such a statement?

Of course, many people reject the science and logical inference surrounding the subject, like George.

Unless you dont believe apophenia, which in itself I wouldnt recriminate at all, youu have every right to be skeptic, but the circumstance he describes seem way beyond random coincidence.

Coincidence? Ironic, physicalism is bound to cause and effect, of course it wasn't coincidence. I believe apophenia is at least decently predictable (we all are), not to mention I KNOW that memories aren't even close to perfect and neither is communication. This is hardly even a decent example, I have better ones. It's not about the examples it's about the evidence and what it suggests: physical causes.

 

[Me Myself]

Of course, many people reject the science and logical inference surrounding the subject, like George.



Coincidence? Ironic, physicalism is bound to cause and effect, of course it wasn't coincidence. I believe apophenia is at least decently predictable (we all are), not to mention I KNOW that memories aren't even close to perfect and neither is communication. This is hardly even a decent example, I have better ones. It's not about the examples it's about the evidence and what it suggests: physical causes.

What does apophenias predictability have anything to do with drawing a room as it is including mirror positioning and type of handles?

Unless I missed the part where he said he is a neurotic feng shuist and her friend knows his exact fengshuistic patterns including types of handles.

 

[George-ananda]

Of course, many people reject the science and logical inference surrounding the subject, like George.

Can you give us one example of George rejecting science and logic. I happen to know he prides himself on rejecting neither.

 

[apophenia]

Why? They're personal subjective experiences that have no external value? I did have an intense mystical experience that actually changed me despite being nothing but the result of brain activity. I fully believe my experiences happened same as yours, it doesn't mean I reject science and reason instead claiming them as magic. I accept the view fully supoorted by science and logical inference. It might not be a fully proven "fact" but that won't make me 360 and claim magic our whatever despite the evidence.

Right. Not similar AT ALL.

Not even close.

You are determined to make claims and inferences about my position which are completely untrue.

Your twisting and manipulation in this thread is shamefully lacking in integrity and honesty.

Your 'religious experience' on opiates obviously confused you, but it has nothing to do with me or what I have presented.

 

[apophenia]

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception
Of course, many people reject the science and logical inference surrounding the subject, like George.

Can you give us one example of George rejecting science and logic. I happen to know he prides himself on rejecting neither.

Doors will be the judge of that George.

He is not responding to what you or I actually say, he is responding to an idea he is trying to defeat in himself, which is clearly causing him to hallucinate when he reads our posts, as far as I can tell.

 

[1137]

Right. Not similar AT ALL.

Not even close.

You are determined to make claims and inferences about my position which are completely untrue.

Your twisting and manipulation in this thread is shamefully lacking in integrity and honesty.

Your 'religious experience' on opiates obviously confused you, but it has nothing to do with me or what I have presented.

Oh I see, because your experiences are more valuable or whatever than mine? And opiates? The only mystical experience I was intoxicated for was with alcohol and it is not the one in question. Also, I'm not sure how trying to provide science and alternate explanations of experiences is manipulation. You just keep hypocritically failing again and again and again.

 

[1137]

Can you give us one example of George rejecting science and logic. I happen to know he prides himself on rejecting neither.

Considering that scientifically backed logical inference supports a "physicalist" perspective based on the evidence provided it's clear where you reject it.

Either way I agree with you that we're doomed to go nowhere in this debate. Rather it's now just me dealing with a bunch of defensive people and no longer interesting. But I'm sure we'll meet again

 

[George-ananda]

Considering that scientifically backed logical inference supports a "physicalist" perspective based on the evidence provided it's clear where you reject it.

So that's your example of me rejecting logic??

Isn't whether 'logical inference supports a "physicalist" perspective based on the evidence" what is being debated here? And we both take different sides.

At least I can sleep tonight knowing I haven't rejected logic and my sanity is in check

 

[1137]

So that's your example of me rejecting logic??

Isn't whether 'logical inference supports a "physicalist" perspective based on the evidence" what is being debated here? And we both take different sides

Yes but this side has supported ourselves.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes but this side has supported ourselves.

Well, I'll give up in exasperation (not defeat).

 

[1137]

Well, I'll give up in exasperation (not defeat).

Fair enough. We should talk again if your side ever gains support. I'd be happy to be wrong.

 

[apophenia]

Oh I see, because your experiences are more valuable or whatever than mine? And opiates? The only mystical experience I was intoxicated for was with alcohol and it is not the one in question. Also, I'm not sure how trying to provide science and alternate explanations of experiences is manipulation. You just keep hypocritically failing again and again and again.

Well, maybe you can explain this ...

From post #75, http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/left-hand-path-religions-dir/147018-drugs-left-hand-path-8.html

Lol intense religious experience. Nothing more than a biased subjective interpretation of the experience being caused by your changed brain chemistry. Even so, I had a "religious experience" on morphine so your theory is disproven.

What was that about hypocrisy and epic fail ?

I take nootropics, which really help with memory issues. I recommend noopept

I'd be happy to be wrong.

Glad to oblige