"Neighbor boys peep at my scantily clad daughters. Should I have them cover up?"

[angellous_evangellous]

"she" is wisdom, i.e. the Torah.

Of all the descriptions I've heard of the Torah, Heavenly Mother isn't one of them.

I'm sure that many Christian interpretations of the Jewish Scriptures are similarly creative.

 

[Skwim]

Ok, lets blame it all on our hormones!

Do you realise that animals are controlled entirely by hormones?

No they're not. Hormones play no part in hunger, affection, or their communication skills.

If someone thinks they are an animal, then perhaps they will behave like one.

We are all animals. Animals with a more developed brain than the others.

I like to think men are a step above your average ape!

Yeah, like those apes who start wars and plot mass genocides.

but for those who are intelligent enough, they know how to make decisions and regulate themselves.

Are you implying that all decisions humans make are good ?

I know many MANY men who do not allow themselves to be controlled by their hormones.

It isn't a matter of control or not. You were wondering, "why a male looks at a female as a 'sexual trigger' in the first place!" And the answer happens to be hormones. Not that a male decides "Hey, I'm going to select females to trigger my sexual interests, but that his hormones trigger the response whether he likes it or not.

 

[work in progress]

there is no such 'tradition' in christianity. It has only been around for 2,000 years. We have a whole 4,000 years of polygamy and sex slavery and women being treated like cattle to explain before christianity even appeared on the world stage.

I'll agree that first century Christianity was revolutionary for its time - women as disciples, teaching and holding important positions in the early churches; but they went totally overboard with their fear and loathing about sex and desires of the flesh. Paul wanted all Christians to be capable of denying the flesh....but if temptation was too great, he conceded that it was better to marry than to burn...not a ringing endorsement of marriage exactly!

I agree, a man certainly can. And many have done so and continue to do so.

Its just sad that it is something that needs to be 'learned'
Im pretty sure a man doesnt have to learn how to view another man as his equal. There is a mutual respect between men because they do not view each other in terms of sex.... I imagine it would be pretty hard to view a woman as your equal if you (not you personally) are secretly undressing her.

We need to learn a lot of things. It's no surprise that modern life is going to require a lot of learning as we go along. If we learn to respect others, we learn we should not use them for our own uses and advantages, if we can consider that they have needs and desires of their own. And it takes learning to realize that there are consequences for actions, and to consider those consequences (like the possibility of marriage break up) before just doing what feels good at the time.

 

[Me Myself]

Let me put it this way: Two men who respect each other...that is equality. Man who sees woman as sexual object in high heels??? not so much!

So homosexuals can´t respect each other because they feel sexually atracted to each other?

I honestly don´t see sex as something that hinders respect.

 

[Draka]

So homosexuals can´t respect each other because they feel sexually atracted to each other?

I honestly don´t see sex as something that hinders respect.

If sex hinders respect then I could never respect a hot guy.
If sex hinders respect then no one should marry someone they find to be very attractive, because then they wouldn't respect their spouse.

 

[Me Myself]

If sex hinders respect then I could never respect a hot guy.
If sex hinders respect then no one should marry someone they find to be very attractive, because then they wouldn't respect their spouse.

I think we are on the same side xD. I mean seriously, the problem is not the hotness, the problem is the sexism and they are not the same.

To show sexy women in ads is hardly bad, never seen any women complaining of hot men in perfume ads.

There is no "objectification" because the sexual object already exists. If we had no sexual objects we would be bodyless. Now if the culture (and to be more specific the parents) are not helping to remember you that to engage with an actual human being is far more interesting that just puting piece A in slot B then that´s called parental failure.

But we still need to wanna play slots! (okay that sounded funny )

 

[Pegg]

I'll agree that first century Christianity was revolutionary for its time - women as disciples, teaching and holding important positions in the early churches; but they went totally overboard with their fear and loathing about sex and desires of the flesh. Paul wanted all Christians to be capable of denying the flesh....but if temptation was too great, he conceded that it was better to marry than to burn...not a ringing endorsement of marriage exactly!

you are right, it was totally revolutionary for its time. However, they were not overboard at all about sex. You need to remember what life was like in the first century and how the lives of women were affected. Sex was a commodity which meant women had no control over it...men subjected women to a lower status...and their bodies were the property of men. In the city of Corinth, they had a saying that when you came to Corinth, you would have to 'Corinthianize' and what it meant was that you would have to join in the fornication. It was a city rife with all forms of immorality....that is why Pauls letters to the Corinthian christians were so firm about sex. It wasnt because Paul had a problem with sex...it was because of what was going on in that city.

We need to learn a lot of things. It's no surprise that modern life is going to require a lot of learning as we go along. If we learn to respect others, we learn we should not use them for our own uses and advantages, if we can consider that they have needs and desires of their own. And it takes learning to realize that there are consequences for actions, and to consider those consequences (like the possibility of marriage break up) before just doing what feels good at the time.

We certainly do, but the world will not change in this regard on its own. Even the most highly educated people can be abusers of sex. Just think of who many pedophiles are...they are well educated and highly respected figures like court judges, psychologists, doctors, ministers etc... their distortion of sex is not affected by their education at all. Its a moral issue.

and if you consider the entertainment that is put out there...it is rife with sexual degradation.... so all the work that has gone into making the status of women more equal with men is failing in many respects. Just look at that game 'Grand theft auto'... you can actually rape and bash women in that game!

 

[Me Myself]

and if you consider the entertainment that is put out there...it is rife with sexual degradation.... so all the work that has gone into making the status of women more equal with men is failing in many respects. Just look at that game 'Grand theft auto'... you can actually rape and bash women in that game!

Heh..it remembers me somethign funny... in Japan I understand they have "rape games" (video games) and they have version for women and for men.

the most sold one is the women version xD (I mean, the one of women raping men)

Society is messed up, but in the other hand I beleive this kind of things serve as an outlet for urges that already come up. It could actually be healthier to play than non play depending on the person

 

[Pegg]

Society is messed up, but in the other hand I beleive this kind of things serve as an outlet for urges that already come up. It could actually be healthier to play than non play depending on the person

it certainly is messed up!

You dont think its possible that these games might actually be encouraging and enticing this sort of behavior? And that it could lead to acts of violence in reality??

 

[Me Myself]

it certainly is messed up!

You dont think its possible that these games might actually be encouraging and enticing this sort of behavior? And that it could lead to acts of violence in reality??

Depends on the person inquestion.

From a psychological point of view they can both reduce the posibility or increase it depending on the person in question.

 

[McBell]

You dont think its possible that these games might actually be encouraging and enticing this sort of behavior? And that it could lead to acts of violence in reality??

No more so than threatening those who engage in premarital sex with the wrath of some god.

 

[pwfaith]

Thanks.

Dear Prudence,
I am a married man with two wonderful teenage daughters living in a tranquil suburban neighborhood. A few months ago a nice couple, "Mike" and "Mary," moved in next door along with their eight children. The family is devoutly Christian. The children are home-schooled, well-behaved, and reserved; and the girls dress modestly. Our families have dined together and get along well. As part of their chores, my daughters do most of the yard work. It's hot here much of the year, and they typically wear short shorts and tank tops or bikini tops. The other day Mike said he wanted us to have a "serious" discussion and told me he caught his boys watching my girls from a bedroom window. He asked if I could please have my girls not wear such revealing clothing if they're going to be outside, as he is trying to protect his kids from "certain elements of the world" and doesn't want them influenced by "overly sexualized displays." When I told my wife and daughters, they were offended. Is it unreasonable to ask my daughters to cover up a bit? I've had problems with difficult neighbors in the past and feel sometimes it is necessary to make small sacrifices in order to keep the peace. My wife thinks I should kindly tell Mike to shove it. What should I do?

—Neighborly Dad
source​

As a mother of 4 daughters and 1 son - none of daughters will be allowed to wear bikini's or Daisy dukes but I see nothing wrong with wearing a tankini and shorts or tank top and shorts. I can understand this mans feelings but I don't agree with demanding or even kindly requesting others dress a particular way in order to prevent your child from looking. What happens when these kids get out in the real world and see these "certain elements of the world"? It's not my responsibility to make everyone else dress the part, it's my responsibility to teach my children how to handle the things of this world that we may not agree with.

 

[beenie]

As a mother of 4 daughters and 1 son - none of daughters will be allowed to wear bikini's or Daisy dukes but I see nothing wrong with wearing a tankini and shorts or tank top and shorts. I can understand this mans feelings but I don't agree with demanding or even kindly requesting others dress a particular way in order to prevent your child from looking. What happens when these kids get out in the real world and see these "certain elements of the world"? It's not my responsibility to make everyone else dress the part, it's my responsibility to teach my children how to handle the things of this world that we may not agree with.

Agreed. As a mother of six girls, I expect them to present themselves with dignity and honor. These attributes transcend clothing.

 

[work in progress]

As a mother of 4 daughters and 1 son - none of daughters will be allowed to wear bikini's or Daisy dukes but I see nothing wrong with wearing a tankini and shorts or tank top and shorts.

That may be your dress code, but are you saying that it's wrong for teenage girls to wear bikinis in a backyard pool? The thread opener said the girls were mostly wearing shorts and tank tops, although it included bikini tops. I still don't see a problem with the way the girls are dressed. The problem is the way the boys (and I suspect the dad) react to seeing the girls when they are...I would say...dressed appropriately for summer.

I don't have any daughters myself, but my sons had girlfriends over who wore bikinis when they were in our pool....I don't recall any pagan orgies in the backyard from personal recollection.

I can understand this mans feelings but I don't agree with demanding or even kindly requesting others dress a particular way in order to prevent your child from looking. What happens when these kids get out in the real world and see these "certain elements of the world"? It's not my responsibility to make everyone else dress the part, it's my responsibility to teach my children how to handle the things of this world that we may not agree with.

I can agree with you here. Boys and men can't go to a public pool or a water park without seeing girls in bikinis...and some of them will actually look like they belong in a bikini. I guess all of the women and teenage girls we see who should stick with the one piece bathing suits keep us from getting too overly excited in such situations.

 

[blackout]

As a mother of 4 daughters and 1 son - none of daughters will be allowed to wear bikini's or Daisy dukes but I see nothing wrong with wearing a tankini and shorts or tank top and shorts. I can understand this mans feelings but I don't agree with demanding or even kindly requesting others dress a particular way in order to prevent your child from looking. What happens when these kids get out in the real world and see these "certain elements of the world"? It's not my responsibility to make everyone else dress the part, it's my responsibility to teach my children how to handle the things of this world that we may not agree with.

How long do you think you can en'force no bikini's or Daisy dukes
on a teenage girl who wants to wear them? And to what end?

I do agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[work in progress]

you are right, it was totally revolutionary for its time. However, they were not overboard at all about sex. You need to remember what life was like in the first century and how the lives of women were affected. Sex was a commodity which meant women had no control over it...men subjected women to a lower status...and their bodies were the property of men. In the city of Corinth, they had a saying that when you came to Corinth, you would have to 'Corinthianize' and what it meant was that you would have to join in the fornication. It was a city rife with all forms of immorality....that is why Pauls letters to the Corinthian christians were so firm about sex. It wasnt because Paul had a problem with sex...it was because of what was going on in that city.

I don't know! The verse I was thinking of previously was from Corinthians 7:9 in the King James version:

King James Bible
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
​

You likely won't accept the authenticity of the stories, but one practice of early Christians written about by 2nd century Roman writers was that some Christian men and women would test their faith by lying together in the same bed for a night, and denying themselves any intimacy. This was supposed to prove their virtue, and show them as being above reproach. Although I suspect that there were a few unplanned pregnancies from such a ritual.

We certainly do, but the world will not change in this regard on its own. Even the most highly educated people can be abusers of sex. Just think of who many pedophiles are...they are well educated and highly respected figures like court judges, psychologists, doctors, ministers etc... their distortion of sex is not affected by their education at all. Its a moral issue.

Pedophiles can come from all sorts of backgrounds. One key common element seems to be that most pedophiles are almost exclusively men, and have been sexually abused as children also. It can spread across generations this way when they are not stopped.

and if you consider the entertainment that is put out there...it is rife with sexual degradation.... so all the work that has gone into making the status of women more equal with men is failing in many respects. Just look at that game 'Grand theft auto'... you can actually rape and bash women in that game!

Yes, I've had this debate a few times with the social libertarian wing of the atheist/agnostic online community. There is an almost kneejerk rejection of any talk of putting limits or constraints, or even criticizing porn and video games these days.

Now, I played one of the earlier versions of Grand Theft Auto with my oldest son (it had beating guys up and stealing their cars, but at least there was no sexual violence in whatever version we had), and I feel that alot depends on the type of person who's playing the game. The defenders of these kinds of games and visual porn point out that it's just about everything goes over in Japan....yet they have a fraction of the crime and sexual crimes that we have over here. But, it's a whole different society and culture, so it may be comparing apples and oranges. I'm sure that there is a significant segment of the population that will act more aggressively and be more prone to committing such crimes if they are regular players of these types of games. Just the fact that many males can be desensitized to these crimes is reason enough to consider some form of action against violent, antisocial, misogynistic games.

Same thing with porn! I'm not going to deny looking at dirty magazines when I was young, and the pornography of the 70's and 80's, when it was still fairly new as a legal enterprise. But, while I wasn't paying attention, porn has gone online in a big way, but is apparently having trouble making the kind of money they made in the old days of magazines and videos. So, to keep paying customers online, they are going with what they call "gonzo porn" which somehow skirts most obscenity laws, and is far more extreme and degrading than anything that was on video 25 years ago!

If I have one beef with Christian conservatives on this issue, it's that they want to compartmentalize the problem as a moral issue that can be dealt with simply through censorship, instead of looking at the big picture, and asking what role modern advertising and consumer culture play in modern culture. They reached a point long ago, when marketing departments started creating demand by turning out advertising that would get inside our heads and warp our sense of identity to turn us into neurotic, impulsive consumers.

A good example of the evils of the advertising world is found in how it has played in the sexualizing of girls at younger and younger ages. And as if I didn't think things were bad enough already, I come across this story on ABC News: Creepy or Cute? French Company Sells Lingerie for Girls 4 to 12 Years Old.
By MIKAELA CONLEY

Aug. 17, 2011



Little girls, clad only in bras and underwear, pose carelessly cool, wearing sunglasses and heavy makeup, in an online photo gallery of Jours Après Lunes new clothing line. They're far from the age where they might need bras, but the "loungerie" line is meant for girls as young as 3 months.

Some call it fashion. Others call it appalling.
"This kind of marketing does sexualize young girls, it does serve as a model that inspires very young girls to think that minimizing what they wear and revealing as much of their body as possible is appropriate, and 'fashionable' and 'cool,' and that this is the way that they should think of themselves," Paul Miller, associate professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Phoenix,

Two weeks ago, 10-year-old French model Thylane Loubry Blondeau made headlines when she graced the cover of Vogue France. Many believed her high-fashion posing put her in an exceptionally mature position that was too sexual for her age.
This week, clothing retailer American Eagle drew ire after marketing a push-up bra that promises to add two cup sizes to girls as young as 15.



​

A timely read from Leonard Sax, the author of "Boys Adrift" - about problems boys are facing today growing up, has focused on the crisis for girls: Girls On The Edge

Girls are cutting themselves with razors. Girls are convinced they’re fat, and starve themselves to prove it. Other girls are so anxious about grades they can’t sleep at night—at eleven years of age. What’s going on? In Girls on the Edge, Dr. Leonard Sax provides the answers. He shares stories of girls who look confident and strong on the outside, but are fragile within. He shows why a growing proportion of teen and tween girls are confused about their sexual identity, or are obsessed with grades or Facebook.
​

Yep, the way things are going, it's a wonder that any kids can turn out happy and well adjusted.

 

[Sunstone]

Agreed. As a mother of six girls, I expect them to present themselves with dignity and honor. These attributes transcend clothing.

Naaaaawww, girls only have as much honor and dignity as they have fabric between them and the world. Honor and dignity don't come from inside a person, they come from what that person is wearing. Quit being superficial!

 

[Skwim]

Naaaaawww, girls only have as much honor and dignity as they have fabric between them and the world. Honor and dignity don't come from inside a person, they come from what that person is wearing. Quit being superficial!

Quite right.

GIRLS WITH HONOR AND DIGNITY
​

GIRLS WITH ABSOLUTELY NO HONOR AND DIGNITY
​

 

[work in progress]

Quite right.

GIRLS WITH HONOR AND DIGNITY
​

GIRLS WITH ABSOLUTELY NO HONOR AND DIGNITY
​

Let's hear it for girls with no dignity!

Seriously though, did you notice that the social norms for beach wear...at least here in the West, have not changed since the 1960's? The bikini was as shocking to older people as rock n roll, pot, long hair, and hippies back then; but not much has changed with regard to what is socially acceptable for swimwear...or tanning wear.

In the 70's, they tried to introduce String or Thong bikinis, and I saw very few of them even though I lived within a mile of a summer beach resort, and spent virtually all of my free time there during the summers. It may have been a little too provocative, or attracted too much unwanted attention for some; but I suspect that another factor is just that most people...men and women, look better with more clothes on than without. That's probably why, during the 70's, the one piece swim suit started making a comeback - most women, even teenagers looked better in it than in bikinis. I'm in good shape for my age, but I rarely take my shirt off at the beach, like I would have done 30 or so years ago. It just doesn't usually seem like the right thing to do now.

But, the issue I was adding to the mix was the pernicious influence that advertisers and marketers of products have had on modern culture. They've created a ruthless sense of competition, especially among a lot of teenage girls looking for attention, and turned them into neurotic, self-absorbed basket cases who will spend any amount of money on - what are in some cases - toxic cosmetic products, to try to live up to an almost unattainable body image.

 

[Alceste]

Quite right.

GIRLS WITH HONOR AND DIGNITY
​

GIRLS WITH ABSOLUTELY NO HONOR AND DIGNITY
​

I don't know, the one in the red has a little bit of dignity (that or a cellulite problem). You can't even see her eyes...