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New Evidence Found To Show Humans Came From Fish

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
This has already been addressed (here), and you ignored that. Until you do, your claim is stalled and is dead in the water.

You have not addressed what you mean by love here, nor explained why loving enemies is a good idea.

Do you love Satan?

What do you think of this? :

"Love your enemies whilst I torture mine in the flames of hell for eternity" - Yahweh

Love is not forgiveness. I have a genuine desire, innate, intrinsic, to see my enemies blessed--a chief blessing being salvation. This is different in scope and intensity then your neutral stance (although not harboring resentment is a great thing) to people who have hurt you.

Your statement, "Love your enemies whilst I torture mine in the flames of hell for eternity," is disallowing for time and place. I love my enemies now, wishing them salvation now, before they are sent to Heaven or Hell. God likewise wishes for all persons to be saved, but will no go around free will.

I don't often focus on Hell, but we can for an aside. Should Stalin and Mao-Tse Tung spend eternity at a tennis club? Aren't people offended when they see white-collars criminals in "country club prisons" or rapists with conjugal visits in prison?

A criminal murders 100 people. Is life sufficient punishment for snuffing 100 lives early?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please allow me to clarify.

Solomon says pathways connect the oceans. This was verified in the 20th century.

Poetic language is used to describe the Earth hanging in the blackness of space. Again, 20th century near space travel for verification.

Over 200 of the 613 Mosaic laws have direct health benefit to us. Again, up to modern times to verify.

Why do you think that any of that matters?

The Bible predicted Israel would become a nation again on May 15, 1948. Again, only verifiable in modern times.

Nope.

Were you thinking of the argument that begins, "GOD told Ezekiel in 536 BC to lie on his side for 390 days and for each day Israel would be in captivity. Then he said to lay on his other side 40 days, and each day would be a year for the land of Judah to be in bondage"?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Love is not forgiveness. I have a genuine desire, innate, intrinsic, to see my enemies blessed--a chief blessing being salvation. This is different in scope and intensity then your neutral stance (although not harboring resentment is a great thing) to people who have hurt you.

Your statement, "Love your enemies whilst I torture mine in the flames of hell for eternity," is disallowing for time and place. I love my enemies now, wishing them salvation now, before they are sent to Heaven or Hell. God likewise wishes for all persons to be saved, but will no go around free will.

I don't often focus on Hell, but we can for an aside. Should Stalin and Mao-Tse Tung spend eternity at a tennis club? Aren't people offended when they see white-collars criminals in "country club prisons" or rapists with conjugal visits in prison?

A criminal murders 100 people. Is life sufficient punishment for snuffing 100 lives early?
Yes, it's sufficient. You mean life imprisonment correct? Since we do not yet possess the means to change such a person's mindset so that he becomes empathetic, containment is the rational course to take.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Solomon says pathways connect the oceans. This was verified in the 20th century.

Poetic language is used to describe the Earth hanging in the blackness of space. Again, 20th century near space travel for verification.

Over 200 of the 613 Mosaic laws have direct health benefit to us. Again, up to modern times to verify.

The Bible predicted Israel would become a nation again on May 15, 1948. Again, only verifiable in modern times.
You continue to miss the entire point. Why weren't Christians running around telling everyone about these "pathways", the nature of the earth, and the dietary stuff before science discovered them? Why was it only after the discoveries were made that Christians suddenly realized what those passages were talking about?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Love is not forgiveness. I have a genuine desire, innate, intrinsic, to see my enemies blessed--a chief blessing being salvation. This is different in scope and intensity then your neutral stance (although not harboring resentment is a great thing) to people who have hurt you.

Your statement, "Love your enemies whilst I torture mine in the flames of hell for eternity," is disallowing for time and place. I love my enemies now, wishing them salvation now, before they are sent to Heaven or Hell. God likewise wishes for all persons to be saved, but will no go around free will.

I don't often focus on Hell, but we can for an aside. Should Stalin and Mao-Tse Tung spend eternity at a tennis club? Aren't people offended when they see white-collars criminals in "country club prisons" or rapists with conjugal visits in prison?

A criminal murders 100 people. Is life sufficient punishment for snuffing 100 lives early?

Is there a reason why you refuse to answer the questions asked of you in this context, and then ask the questioner to go find his question for you again?

Why does this happen? I have my own ideas, but I'll let you speak for yourself first. Why do you consistently ignore rebuttals and tough questions, then repeat your rebutted claim?

This discussion stalled when you made that choice. Your questions to me will also go unanswered until you decide to try good faith argumentation rather than a monologue wherein you post your thoughts but won't address those of others.

How many times do you need to be told this? Are you aware that you have been accused of this multiple times recently, and to my knowledge, have ignored that as well?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Most of the world is unaffected by what you call a powerful prediction.

That's the best example of a self-fulfilling biblical prophecy that we have.

Let me show you what a compelling prophecy would look like. It's fiction of course - from the movie "Frequency."

Dennis Quaid's character's son, who is communicating to him by ham radio from his father future, wants to convince his father that it is really him and really coming from the future. From 1998, he tells his father who is living in 1969 at the time, the outcome of game five of the 1969 World Series by radio, which his father is watching live in a bar :

"Well, game five was the big one. It turned in the bottom of the 6th. We were down 3-0. Cleon Jones gets hit on the foot - left a scuff mark on the ball. Clendenon comes up. The count goes to 2 and 2. High fastball. He nailed it. Weis slammed a solo shot in the 7th to tie. Jones and Swoboda scored in the 8th. We won, Pop."

The father sees it happening live on TV, and becomes convinced. That's high quality prophecy.

The specificity and unlikeliness tell you it's not a parlor trick as long as you can be sure that the game you are watching is live.

High quality prophecy is specific - that is, detailed and unambiguous. The highest quality prophecy specifies the time and place. It needs to prophecy something surprising, something unlikely or unique, something that could not have been contrived, and was not self-fulfilling.

And the prophecies need to be verified, fulfilled completely, predict something that definitely occurred subsequently, and be unaccompanied by failed prophecies.

Nothing in this world can actually do that except science.

How about a standing ovation for the scientists at CERN that found the Higgs particle? The scientific prophets told us EXACTLY where to look (at what energy and under what conditions) and EXACTLY what we would find there (the particle's mass, charge, spin, and parity).

The physicists said, "Examine matter at that very high energy, and if we're right about reality, you'll find Higgs."

The scientists already had an excellent record of prophecy:

[1] Einstein prophesied the bending of light grazing past the sun. Such was the confidence in the priests of science that a fleet of ships was sent to various locations around the world to confirm the prophecy in 1919. It made headlines. May 29, 1919: A Major Eclipse, Relatively Speaking

[2] Twenty-five years later, the scientists did it again. "Quantum electrodynamics (QED) is the study of how electrons and photons interact ... The predictions of QED regarding the scattering of photons and electrons are accurate to eleven decimal places." How Quantum Physics Explains the Invisible Universe

[3] You can read about the prophecy of the cosmic microwave background and see the same thing. The priests of science predicted the existence of previously unsuspected radiation pervading the universe in an incredibly uniform way, and predicted it's precise temperature and wavelength, also later confirmed Cosmic microwave background - Wikipedia

So, based on that excellent reputation of prophecy, billions were allocated to look for the Higgs particle, with which the scientists built a fine machine - CERN's Large Hadron Collider - to look where man had never looked before except in his rich imagination.

[4] And lo and behold! A particle was born. Higgs! The scientific prophets were correct again. Biblical prophecy just can't compete with that.

Carl Sagan said it well:

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?"

The Bible said prior to 250 BCE that Israel would become a Jewish nation for a second time on May 15, 1948 CE.

Specific Measurable Achievable (with God) Results-oriented TIMED - S.M.A.R.T.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Well, all I can say is, maybe you need to get out more and meet a greater diversity of people.

I'm not sure why this particular "virtue" is being singled out as something special anyway. It's not always a smart idea to love one's enemies.

And I'm still not quite sure how this is supposed to be some kind of evidence for the existence of the Christian god.

Jesus transforms people. For example, many people are able to come off self-destructive behaviors in only two steps:

1. Admitting their powerlessness/lack of willpower.

2. Asking for Christ's transformation power.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Self-fulfilling prophecies aren't all that impressive to me.

Me, too.

Explain how Israel self-fulfilled these biblical prophecies:

1. You will be scattered, via Assyria, Babylon and Rome.

2. You will flee to many nations, in each, blessing them with your knowledge and talents.

3. You will be persecuted in each of these nations.

4. You will reestablish a Jewish nation, literally in a single day, which day will be May 14, 1948 CE.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Why do you think that any of that matters?



Nope.

Were you thinking of the argument that begins, "GOD told Ezekiel in 536 BC to lie on his side for 390 days and for each day Israel would be in captivity. Then he said to lay on his other side 40 days, and each day would be a year for the land of Judah to be in bondage"?

The days for the Ezekiel prophecy minus the 70 years "served" in captivity times the 7 of the Torah equals in Gentile years May 14, 1948 CE--the day that Israel was established (which math no one did BEFORE May 1948)!!!!!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yes, it's sufficient. You mean life imprisonment correct? Since we do not yet possess the means to change such a person's mindset so that he becomes empathetic, containment is the rational course to take.

I'm speaking in terms of justice, not security. What is sufficient punishment?

Your answer is rational, rooted in your empirical views. Justice involves metaphysics.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You continue to miss the entire point. Why weren't Christians running around telling everyone about these "pathways", the nature of the earth, and the dietary stuff before science discovered them? Why was it only after the discoveries were made that Christians suddenly realized what those passages were talking about?

Likely it was the following:

1. The Bible emphasis on spending most time doing something more vital, warning scoffers of Hell and helping people aspire to Heaven.

2. The Bible's prophecy, proven true, shown even today in this thread, that scoffers . . . scoff, slowing down the progress of these and other truths.

Of course, your question is a straw man, because the Bible writers cared to print these facts and Bible production houses printed more copies of the Bible than the next ten most popular books combined! I bet you've been offered free Bibles before! Did you read them?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Is there a reason why you refuse to answer the questions asked of you in this context, and then ask the questioner to go find his question for you again?

Why does this happen? I have my own ideas, but I'll let you speak for yourself first. Why do you consistently ignore rebuttals and tough questions, then repeat your rebutted claim?

This discussion stalled when you made that choice. Your questions to me will also go unanswered until you decide to try good faith argumentation rather than a monologue wherein you post your thoughts but won't address those of others.

How many times do you need to be told this? Are you aware that you have been accused of this multiple times recently, and to my knowledge, have ignored that as well?

I just answered your question AGAIN! Here it is a third time if not a fourth:

Love isn't the "I don't give a worry to the two people who hurt me in my past" that you mentioned. Love is action and not neutrality.

If there is a different question I missed, I will gladly answer it.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Justice requires the righting of wrongs, something that is usually impossible. Future wrongs can be prevented at the price of imprisonment, and the concomitant injustice that often promulgates, and retribution can be extracted ... but justice? It's mythical. Remember, "an eye for an eye ..." is not a prescription for justice but rather the setting of a limit upon retribution.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm speaking in terms of justice, not security. What is sufficient punishment?

Your answer is rational, rooted in your empirical views. Justice involves metaphysics.
My view of justice is a system of laws and ethics that increases flourishing of all individuals. Punishment is only a blunt and barbaric tool of deterrence that should be eschewed whenever and where ever possible. A person who has profited in some way by using extreme unethical means and crimes like murder should be shorn of all such profits and power and be exiled in prison for life or until such time (nothing we have here yet) as a complete change is character can be reliably determined. I do not see what is just about killing him. What use is that?

Ethics and justice is about developing rational ways to create and sustain flourishing societies of people. Nothing to do with metaphysics.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most of the world is unaffected by what you call a powerful prediction.

That's the best example of a self-fulfilling biblical prophecy that we have.

Let me show you what a compelling prophecy would look like. It's fiction of course - from the movie "Frequency."

Dennis Quaid's character's son, who is communicating to him by ham radio from his father future, wants to convince his father that it is really him and really coming from the future. From 1998, he tells his father who is living in 1969 at the time, the outcome of game five of the 1969 World Series by radio, which his father is watching live in a bar :

"Well, game five was the big one. It turned in the bottom of the 6th. We were down 3-0. Cleon Jones gets hit on the foot - left a scuff mark on the ball. Clendenon comes up. The count goes to 2 and 2. High fastball. He nailed it. Weis slammed a solo shot in the 7th to tie. Jones and Swoboda scored in the 8th. We won, Pop."

The father sees it happening live on TV, and becomes convinced. That's high quality prophecy.

The specificity and unlikeliness tell you it's not a parlor trick as long as you can be sure that the game you are watching is live.

High quality prophecy is specific - that is, detailed and unambiguous. The highest quality prophecy specifies the time and place. It needs to prophecy something surprising, something unlikely or unique, something that could not have been contrived, and was not self-fulfilling.

And the prophecies need to be verified, fulfilled completely, predict something that definitely occurred subsequently, and be unaccompanied by failed prophecies.

Nothing in this world can actually do that except science.

How about a standing ovation for the scientists at CERN that found the Higgs particle? The scientific prophets told us EXACTLY where to look (at what energy and under what conditions) and EXACTLY what we would find there (the particle's mass, charge, spin, and parity).

The physicists said, "Examine matter at that very high energy, and if we're right about reality, you'll find Higgs."

The scientists already had an excellent record of prophecy:

[1] Einstein prophesied the bending of light grazing past the sun. Such was the confidence in the priests of science that a fleet of ships was sent to various locations around the world to confirm the prophecy in 1919. It made headlines. May 29, 1919: A Major Eclipse, Relatively Speaking

[2] Twenty-five years later, the scientists did it again. "Quantum electrodynamics (QED) is the study of how electrons and photons interact ... The predictions of QED regarding the scattering of photons and electrons are accurate to eleven decimal places." How Quantum Physics Explains the Invisible Universe

[3] You can read about the prophecy of the cosmic microwave background and see the same thing. The priests of science predicted the existence of previously unsuspected radiation pervading the universe in an incredibly uniform way, and predicted it's precise temperature and wavelength, also later confirmed Cosmic microwave background - Wikipedia

So, based on that excellent reputation of prophecy, billions were allocated to look for the Higgs particle, with which the scientists built a fine machine - CERN's Large Hadron Collider - to look where man had never looked before except in his rich imagination.

[4] And lo and behold! A particle was born. Higgs! The scientific prophets were correct again. Biblical prophecy just can't compete with that.

Carl Sagan said it well:

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?"


The Bible said prior to 250 BCE that Israel would become a Jewish nation for a second time on May 15, 1948 CE.

Unsupported claim rejected.

And unsurprisingly, you ignored the entire content of the post.

Biblical prophecy is tepid. The claim was made, it was supported by an argument, the argument was ignored, and the claim repeated.

This discussion has also stalled at this point. The argument stands.

Specific Measurable Achievable (with God) Results-oriented TIMED - S.M.A.R.T.

What?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible said prior to 250 BCE that Israel would become a Jewish nation for a second time on May 15, 1948 CE.

Specific Measurable Achievable (with God) Results-oriented TIMED - S.M.A.R.T.


Please give a specific verse from the Bible making that claim.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The days for the Ezekiel prophecy minus the 70 years "served" in captivity times the 7 of the Torah equals in Gentile years May 14, 1948 CE--the day that Israel was established (which math no one did BEFORE May 1948)!!!!!


Wow. Nobody did the math before then? Why do you think not? Perhaps that 'prophesy' was too vague to make a specific prediction? Instead, people manipulate random numbers until they get a success? Numerology leads to many garbage ideas.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The days for the Ezekiel prophecy minus the 70 years "served" in captivity times the 7 of the Torah equals in Gentile years May 14, 1948 CE--the day that Israel was established (which math no one did BEFORE May 1948)!!!!!

I've seen that calculation, and it has some problems.

Here's the argument I'd seen in the past. Notice the phrase "360 days a year" :

"GOD told Ezekiel in 536 BC to lie on his side for 390 days and for each day Israel would be in captivity. THen he said to lay on his other side 40 days, and each day would be a year for the land of Juda to be in bondage. THis is a total of 430 years, from 536 bc until GOD would reform the nation of Israel.

"When GOD gave this prophecy to Ezekiel, They had already been in captivity in Babylon for 70 years. So we deduct 70 years from the 430 years, which leaves 360 years from 536 BC. So GOD is telling Ezekiel in 536 BC that he will reform the nation of Israel in 360 years. 536 BC minus 360 ='s 176 BC But GOD didn't reform Israel in 176 BC, why? Because if you go to the book of Leviticus GOD is talking about blessings and cursings.

"4 times in one chapter GOD says that if the Jews didn't obey him that he would multiply their punishment 7 times. At this time the Jews were free to leave Babylon, but they didn't, and because they didn't we multiply 360 years by 7.....360 x 7 = 2520.....So now GOD is telling Ezekiel in 536 BC that he will reform the nation of Israel in 2520 years. A prophetic year consists 12 months with 30 days each. We know this from Revelation of times time and 1/2 a time, and from Noah being in the ark 5 months for 150 days.

"So now we say 2520 years times 360 days a year..='s 907,200. So now GOD is telling Ezekiel that in 907,200 days he would reform the nation of Israel. So now all we have to do is convert this to our year of 365.25 days per year....so....907,200 divided by 365.25 = 2483.8...So God is telling Ezekiel in 536 BC that he will reform Israel in 2483.4 of our years. Now it's simple subtraction. 2483.8 minus 536 (and because this prophecy was given in the spring....3 (point 3)....which equals 1947.5.....and to be mathematically correct, since there is no year zero, we have to add 1 year....which brings us to 1948.5 and on May 15th."

Whose going to tell him that 1948.5 takes him to the end of June, 1948 - not May 15th?

The problem I see is that too many parameters were overlooked in the calculation. If you take the number of sons of Noah divided by the number of people in the Garden of Eden divided by the the number of tribes of Israel plus the six days of creation divided by the length of the ark in cubits times the number of horsemen of the apocalypse divided by the square root of the number of apostles, what you get is not a prediction involving Israel, but rather, God telling Rehoboam how many hours until Passover.

Numerology is a sensitive science.
 
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