New gender?

[CynthiaCypher]

What makes this person like Kim Kardassian?

And what is it, in your opinion, that really matters?

Would you say you're currently distracted from what really matters because you're on a computer discussing this with me rather than doing other things, or does this discussion matter?

I think what really matters, is quite diverse. A social worker matters, because she helps people. An engineer matters, because she creates solutions that help solve problems. A performer matters, because it gives people happiness and art. And a bearded crossdressing singer matters, because in addition to performing, she is specifically trying to spread tolerance. At the very least, her act created this discussion, and probably countless more like it.

And a lot of what matters, is how people influence the feelings of others, since everyone encounters dozens or hundreds of people throughout their days and weeks. Some people have a tendency to tear down those around them, others have a tendency to be indifferent to those around them, while others have a tendency to build up those around them.

That, along with their profession, influences whether they're helping or hurting what matters. For example, an engineer that designs inexpensive bicycles to be sold in Africa (boosts a family's income dramatically), or helps make airplanes safer, or something like that, is doing some good work. An engineer that helps design missiles, depending on context, might not be doing good work. And then it comes down to how she spends her personal time, both in terms of volunteering and in terms of how she treats others every day. For example, let's say a singer is a really rude person, really mean to people around her. That would be deviating from what matters, in my view. Now let's say a singer is a really nice person to those around her, and brightens their day. That would be promoting what I think matters. Someone could even potentially do good work but then offset it by causing negativity outside of work. So it's a complete package sort of thing.

I think a lot of people have rather limited vision with these sorts of things, that only what they do matters, and anything outside of that, doesn't matter.

I'll think about this...

 

[Alceste]

The reason the world is burning is because people are selfish and are distracted by bull **** such as this person and Kim Kardassian instead of the things that really matter.

You seem pretty distracted by dear old Conchita yourself. I admit, I find the discussion interesting, but I'm not the one arguing that this guy merits no attention for creating this character, despite the fact Conchita is successfully achieving his stated aim of provoking a public discussion of tolerance and diversity.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't see how cross-sex hormonal therapy could possibly have an effect on human evolution.

Let's call the police anyway...just to be safe.

 

[Amechania]

I don't see how cross-sex hormonal therapy could possibly have an effect on human evolution.

it couldn't but it would be a beautiful world. Of course no one would ever leave their house.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This is nothing new. This is textbook transvestitism...

Transvestites are different from transsexuals & transgenders in the fact that transvestites are not striving to necessarily define themselves as the gender opposite of what they were born. As a result, transvestites differ on whether or not they like to be referred to as a he or a she.

I don't know which gender this person wishes to identify with, but I refuse to refer to this person as a "she". The beard, along with body hair, are unique attributes of the male species. As a result, I cannot objectively refer to a transvestite as a "she" if he still possess either physical trait.

And, I cannot comprehend why a "psychological" woman would want a beard in the first place. I looked up other photos of him and discovered that he got rid of his body hair... so why the beard?

Transvestites and drag queens are not the same. Transvestites are usually straight men who get a sexual thrill from cross-dressing. Drag queens are usually gay or queer men who create personas for performance reasons. While they are in character, it's customary to refer to a drag queen by female pronouns. For example, when RuPaul is all dressed up, you call RuPaul "she" and "her". But when RuPaul is presenting as a male, you call him by male pronouns. Vice versa for drag kings.

Female pronouns:

Male pronouns:

The beard that Conchita wears is to challenge expectations of gender. It's part of the persona as a bearded lady (which do exist!).

 

[factseeker88]

I saw this photo today. Apparently this is a candidate in the Eurovision singing contest. I'm still trying to figure out what he/she/it is. Maybe there is a new gender and someone forgot to tell me.

Anyway, any thoughts on the new species? >>

It probably stimulated a guilt feeling. When was the last time you turpentined a cat.

 

[Drolefille]

I already invalidated your argument. If you have a penis and a beard, you're a "he". Stop dismissing the beard as synonymous with masculine identity.

Unless you're a she.

Beards on biological females are abnormal. They're attributed to disorders - genetic and hormonal. 99.9% of biological females cannot grow beards, so stop pretending it is gender-normative and therefore invalidates my argument

.
You don't know many people from the Mediterranean do you?
In fact, my point is that gender normativity doesn't matter.

Both facial & vellus hair are accepted as masculine traits because it is gender-normative for men to have facial & vellus hair.

Masculine =/= male.

(1) What did I make up?

That any lack of understanding is due to gender.

(2) It's a good thing you said "probably" since it is quite obvious you're wrong. Mother nature gave me all those things you listed AND a penis. I think it's obvious who is the man here...

Ah yes, genitals, those are clearly the important thing.
And it's not really obvious at all. It's only a problem if you see not being considered a "man" as an insult, I suppose.

(3) I already do that.

No, you stated that a beard and a penis make a he despite the appropriate pronound being a "she"

(4) What "bizarre claim" am I making?

That Penumbra's lack of understanding has anything to do with her being a woman.

(5) When did I ever question this person's understanding of masculinity? I was addressing Penumbra's understanding of masculinity.

You in fact have stated that the drag queen in question is wrong about pronoun usage. So at the same time as you insist on saying "HE" instead of "SHE" you're insulting a physically male's understanding of his anatomy and gender when he presents a female persona who, by the way, is a she.

(6) Explain to me how my worldview is sexist.

No.

 

[Drolefille]

I saw this photo today. Apparently this is a candidate in the Eurovision singing contest. I'm still trying to figure out what he/she/it is. Maybe there is a new gender and someone forgot to tell me.

Anyway, any thoughts on the new species? >>

It probably stimulated a guilt feeling. When was the last time you turpentined a cat.

What.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let's call the police anyway...just to be safe.

I'm going to be arrested, then?

 

[columbus]

I saw this photo today. Apparently this is a candidate in the Eurovision singing contest. I'm still trying to figure out what he/she/it is. Maybe there is a new gender and someone forgot to tell me.

Anyway, any thoughts on the new species? >>

It probably stimulated a guilt feeling. When was the last time you turpentined a cat.

The bigotry we will always have with us.:help:

Tom

 

[Drolefille]

I'm going to be arrested, then?

Well you are making the world burn. I mean that's gotta be arson...

But then again, I probably am to blame too

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well you are making the world burn. I mean that's gotta be arson...

But then again, I probably am to blame too

I'll wave to you down the cell block.

 

[Drolefille]

I'll wave to you down the cell block.

Can we do the Cell Block Tango? Please?

 

[columbus]

Well you are making the world burn. I mean that's gotta be arson...

But then again, I probably am to blame too

Frank isn't making my world burn.

S/he's just another wierdo from
ulp....
Columbus.

Tom:sorry1:

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Can we do the Cell Block Tango? Please?

From Chicago? Well, I'll need to practice.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Frank isn't making my world burn.

S/he's just another wierdo from
ulp....
Columbus.

Tom:sorry1:

I live in Columbus but I'm from San Francisco. I'm a guy, by the way.

 

[Penumbra]

I already invalidated your argument. If you have a penis and a beard, you're a "he".

Sounds like the penis plays are bit more crucial of a role there than the beard, though, since you said you'd call a biological female with a beard, "she". It sounds like something other than the beard, is your deciding factor. And then you said you respect the transgender community and that if they don't have a beard, you'll call them "she". So it sounds like even the penis might not be the deciding factor.

So I don't think you invalidated anything. I just continue to see inconsistency.

Like, if a man dresses up as a woman, you'll call that character a she. But if that man dresses up as a bearded woman (a type of woman that does exist), then you refuse to call that character a she, even though you'd call an actual bearded woman, a she. It's not too important in this case because the person is a crossdressing man rather than a transgender woman, so pronouns probably wouldn't offend the person. But logically, it's a contradiction.

This seems to be why he does this- to mess with people, to sort of bring out the logical inconsistencies people have, to create goofy conversations like this one. Gender and sex are areas where a lot of people seem to assign arbitrary "rules" to things but then as soon as those rules start being compared, it turns out that they don't actually make much sense. The problem with making up rules in the first place is that they become messy if they aren't 100% applicable. So as a general "rule", women don't have beards, except when they do.

An interesting fact, according to articles I've read, is that for transgender people that access hormones and all that, it has historically been a problem if a trans woman was attracted to females, or if she was noticeably "butch" in personality, or basically in any way not stereotypically feminine enough. Even though women can be lesbian, and women can be tomboys, a person who was assigned male at birth that had a gender identity as a woman and was trying to access hormones to feminize her body, would be held to a stricter standard of what constitutes feminine, as part of the decision to let her access hormones or not. As a result, many would lie about their sexual orientation or act in certain ways, to convince their hetero-normative doctor or therapist to let them access hormones. Holding people to different standard is a form of inconsistency.

Stop dismissing the beard as synonymous with masculine identity.

How can it be synonymous with masculine identity if some women with feminine identities, have beards? This part here is as plain as one of those formal logic questions on a logic test.

If you were being precise about word choice, it would be something like, "capability of growing a beard is rather strongly correlated with masculine identity".

Beards on biological females are abnormal. They're attributed to disorders - genetic and hormonal. 99.9% of biological females cannot grow beards, so stop pretending it is gender-normative and therefore invalidates my argument.

I didn't say it's gender normative. I said that the inconsistency is odd. That you'd call a woman with a beard a she, and you'd call a transgender woman or a crossdressing man a she, but not a transgender woman or a crossdressing man with a beard a she? Those people can be women, but they can't be bearded women, even though bearded women do exist?

As far as disorders go, what constitutes a disorder is somewhat subjective and somewhat objective. Certain hair growth on women is usually associated with abnormal hormone levels, although there are other reasons. Sometimes it's a harmful reason, while other times, it's harmless other than potentially causing psychological distress. (Like, I'd certainly have distress if I began growing a beard, as many women would.)

But if for example a woman has a beard and is healthy and she is cool with having that beard, is that necessarily a disorder? We can objectively say it's rare, but we can only subjectively label it as a disorder, in that case. I knew a girl in high school that had quite a bit of facial hair. There are ways to temporarily and permanently remove hair, but instead she just sort of rocked it as it was. So without knowing medical details, I certainly wouldn't call her form of expression a disorder.

Both facial & vellus hair are accepted as masculine traits because it is gender-normative for men to have facial & vellus hair.

Yes, but it's not synonymous.

 

[columbus]

I live in Columbus but I'm from San Francisco. I'm a guy, by the way.

I'll add a few dozen more smilies.

Tom

Eta
~wheres that new pouncehug smilie?~

 

[kashmir]

I don't see how cross-sex hormonal therapy could possibly have an effect on human evolution.

Drugs put into the body gets passed down to their off spring.
Clearly there is no solid evidence either way, and we can not directly observe evolution happen, so the question is still unanswerable on long term affects.
I cant post links yet, taken from NYU Langone Med Center
"content?ChunkIID=90869"

Remember that no evidence has made a solid connection with either side of this argument

Let's call the police anyway...just to be safe.

You seem to have misunderstood me.
I am wondering about it not condemning it.
I also find the girl in the video fascinating, have full support for her not allowing her family to suppress her natural self.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Beards really aren't all that important. There's males who can't ever grow beards.