Nice Guy Syndrome and Misandry

[painted wolf]

I almost never have inclinations or a desire to take charge in any kind of relationship, neither am i particularly attracted to people (or at least that attribute in people), who like to be taken charge of.

I don't view that as a healthy relationship, and in fact start feeling worried if i think that this is happening in any relationship i'm a part of. I'm uncomfortable with it if its a constant thing. That is, if i'm always in charge.

In my relationships with others, i'm only genuinely interested in relationships where both sides provide on a close pattern to each other, on all or almost all aspects. And when i imagine in particular what i'd like about a romantic relationship (thats all the experience i got in this regard so far i'm afraid; fantasies ), i imagine one where i can whenever i need to completely let myself go to my partner (which is something i need often) without worrying about appearing too weak, submissive or things along those lines. Put differently, one where i can get to be 'contained' when i need to, in every sense of the word.

And i would (and do in other kinds of relationships) do the same for my partner. Other kinds of 'partner ships' work in that each partner have some aspect that the other is lacking, and in that sense they complete each other. Which is fine. The only problem in regards to the 'in charge' part is that it sort of nullifies that partner ship in my view, the term of partnership i mean. If one side is always in charge. In other factors however it doesn't have to be so closely balanced or even present in both the people involved (despite my preference being different than this).

Basically, what i'm trying to say is that i don't see how anyone can say whats attractive and whats not about a man, and whether or not 'nice guys' (under whatever definition) are attractive, when people need all sorts of different things and prefer different attributes than each other, and different from the common stereotypes of both what men are supposed to be and what women supposedly like in them.

This includes the kind of nice guy that is getting referred to in all sorts of negative ways here (understandably). People who don't stand up for themselves very often. That is in my view a negative attribute, but that doesn't mean that its necessarily unattractive. To all people i mean.

We aren't talking about guys who are genuinely nice... rather it's a form of misandry where the guy blames women for not letting them have sex with them because they are "nice guys".

Feminsim 101 – Nice Guy Syndrome « I have overflowing opinions and theories.

wa:do

 

[Sunstone]

We aren't talking about guys who are genuinely nice... rather it's a form of misandry where the guy blames women for not letting them have sex with them because they are "nice guys".

Which is disgusting by any name you call it.

 

[Songbird]

We aren't talking about guys who are genuinely nice... rather it's a form of misandry where the guy blames women for not letting them have sex with them because they are "nice guys".

Feminsim 101 – Nice Guy Syndrome « I have overflowing opinions and theories.

wa:do

The link was helpful to me.

This term annoys me for the confusion it causes. It's easy to see no one wants to be a footstool or a doormat, but who doesn't want to just be a nice guy? Such a misleading phrase. How about gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizer? Much better.

 

[Sunstone]

How about gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizer? Much better.

Sheer poetry.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

The link was helpful to me.

This term annoys me for the confusion it causes. It's easy to see no one wants to be a footstool or a doormat, but who doesn't want to just be a nice guy? Such a misleading phrase. How about gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizer? Much better.

Too bad it doesn't have a spiffy acronym.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The link was helpful to me.

This term annoys me for the confusion it causes. It's easy to see no one wants to be a footstool or a doormat, but who doesn't want to just be a nice guy? Such a misleading phrase. How about gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizer? Much better.

But gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizers don't think they're gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizers, so they aren't going to say to themselves "I'm a gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizer; why do women reject me?"

 

[painted wolf]

Which is disgusting by any name you call it.

Absolutely.... another thing that "nice guys" tend to do is assume that friendship is a gateway to sexual relations. The idea that if you are friends with a girl she owes it to you to be sexually attracted to you as well. And if she breaks up she should just have sex with you instead because you're a "nice guy" and let her talk to you.

This comes up a lot in discussions of the "friendzone". The idea that simply being friends with a girl is undesirable and the only reason to be friends is to eventually have sex.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

wa:do

 

[Sunstone]

Absolutely.... another thing that "nice guys" tend to do is assume that friendship is a gateway to sexual relations. The idea that if you are friends with a girl she owes it to you to be sexually attracted to you as well. And if she breaks up she should just have sex with you instead because you're a "nice guy" and let her talk to you.

This comes up a lot in discussions of the "friendzone". The idea that simply being friends with a girl is undesirable and the only reason to be friends is to eventually have sex.

wa:do

Spot on! In a way, they're highly manipulative personalities -- they merely lack an effective means of manipulation, since their approach so seldom works.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Being one of those nice guys who have had no luck with women, I often feel that one of the reasons for this is how I am perceived, I do not believe it is because they hate men, but rather because women tend not to view the 'nice guy' as a potential lover - but as a potential husband. The 'nice guy' is generally perceived as boring, not boy friend material - for this reason, they are the sort women are perhaps more likely to turn to when it comes time to marry after they have enjoyed themselves in the singles' market. I do not believe that such women hate men, or even hate that particular type of man - instead I simply believe that it is often a case of preferences.

For example I am a nice guy and as such am often considered the 'best friend' type (no I don't do this myself), I have been set up in the past to help girls get over abusive relationships, being a nice guy I am able to comport myself in a way that they are less likely to feel threatening, as a result they are able to recover to an extent from their ills. After a while however, that sort of 'nice guy' persona begins to move from the 'gentle boyfriend' to the 'nice but boring friend' perspective - an unavoidable slide.

Nice guys therefore are the type to attract those who have had unpleasant relationships in the past... or those that have been having their fun (tried to clean this up) and want to settle down now.

 

[Songbird]

Sheer poetry.

My writing teacher always did praise me for my tin ear, klunky mechanics, and downright awful word amalgams that barely passed for sentences.

 

[painted wolf]

Spot on! In a way, they're highly manipulative personalities -- they merely lack an effective means of manipulation, since their approach so seldom works.

I'd also say it comes from an expectation that women owe men access to their bodies. And if a woman happens to choose to not find the "nice guy" attractive sexually, then she is immediately at fault.

I read a really good essay about this kind of attitude being implanted and reinforced by "romantic comedies" and other media where the women (after being in a "bad relationship") inevitably finds out that her "one true love" is in fact the "nice guy" that was her loyal friend from the very beginning.

It sets up young men to think that if they are just "nice" enough to girls that you will get to be the "hero" and end up with the girl. Naturally, the real world doesn't work like that.

wa:do

 

[Songbird]

Too bad it doesn't have a spiffy acronym.

It probably won't catch on.

 

[Songbird]

But gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizers don't think they're gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizers, so they aren't going to say to themselves "I'm a gaslighting, passive-aggressive blame externalizer; why do women reject me?"

True...I shuddered when I thought of a particular example.

To expound on that, saying "But I'm a nice guy!" (or person, or husband, or wife, or whatever) is often a pitying martyr attitude that deflects attention away from the issue to a "Why are you attacking me when you're the one who's mean?" discussion.

 

[painted wolf]

Being one of those nice guys who have had no luck with women, I often feel that one of the reasons for this is how I am perceived, I do not believe it is because they hate men, but rather because women tend not to view the 'nice guy' as a potential lover - but as a potential husband. The 'nice guy' is generally perceived as boring, not boy friend material - for this reason, they are the sort women are perhaps more likely to turn to when it comes time to marry after they have enjoyed themselves in the singles' market. I do not believe that such women hate men, or even hate that particular type of man - instead I simply believe that it is often a case of preferences.

For example I am a nice guy and as such am often considered the 'best friend' type (no I don't do this myself), I have been set up in the past to help girls get over abusive relationships, being a nice guy I am able to comport myself in a way that they are less likely to feel threatening, as a result they are able to recover to an extent from their ills. After a while however, that sort of 'nice guy' persona begins to move from the 'gentle boyfriend' to the 'nice but boring friend' perspective - an unavoidable slide.

Nice guys therefore are the type to attract those who have had unpleasant relationships in the past... or those that have been having their fun (tried to clean this up) and want to settle down now.

Perhaps your tactic of going for girls that have just broken up isn't the best one?

wa:do

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I dont - as I said I was set up (by her friends) because as a nice guy it was believed I could help her since she was afraid of most guys because of some horrible things in her past (it was not a recent thing).

 

[painted wolf]

I dont - as I said I was set up (by her friends) because as a nice guy it was believed I could help her since she was afraid of most guys because of some horrible things in her past (it was not a recent thing).

Seems like a bad reason to try to start a relationship. Not to be harsh, but I'm not surprised it didn't last.

wa:do

 

[Songbird]

I'd also say it comes from an expectation that women owe men access to their bodies. And if a woman happens to choose to not find the "nice guy" attractive sexually, then she is immediately at fault.

I read a really good essay about this kind of attitude being implanted and reinforced by "romantic comedies" and other media where the women (after being in a "bad relationship") inevitably finds out that her "one true love" is in fact the "nice guy" that was her loyal friend from the very beginning.

It sets up young men to think that if they are just "nice" enough to girls that you will get to be the "hero" and end up with the girl. Naturally, the real world doesn't work like that.

wa:do

Interesting. I posted an article somewhere on RF about Hollywood in general inculcating the attitude in men that they deserve beautiful women. Most of the blockbusters and classics are about men eventually winning the affections of the heroine - who incidentally is always beautiful and lacking any character development. Her story in the movie is irrelevant. The point is that the hero always gets the pretty girl, and the point which boys may internalize is that they too should get the same. One of the many issues involved is that real women don't look like Hollywood heroines.

Which is why I've said before - more realistic nudity on TV! The ugly, overweight, blemished, sad, overworked, overtired, infirmed in nude glory will go a long way toward body image acceptance. Okay, tangent over.

 

[Road Warrior]

Seems like a bad reason to try to start a relationship. Not to be harsh, but I'm not surprised it didn't last.

Agreed on both counts. "Damaged goods" is an old sexist term, but it's accurate. If the lady has problems, she needs a professional counselor, not a date.

 

[Chisti]

Nice guys have a point. Women love rogues who treat them like c**p but abuse nice people. Not all women, of course, but this is usually the case. So blaming the nice guy for being spineless, submissive is changing the subject. Even if it is true that nice guys are spineless doormats, that doesn't give ppl the right to abuse them.