No Buddhism without Hinduism

[RamaRaksha]

Would anyone doubt that if the Buddha had been born in Europe or Muslim lands in the middle ages, he would have been branded a heretic and burned at the stake, dying a horrible death? His teachings consigned to the fire, to be lost forever! There would be no Buddhism today! And what do we Hindus do to the man who rejected Hinduism? Why, make him a God, of course! Imagine the greatness of a faith that saw divinity in a man who rejects it's teachings! Go back a few hundred years and you see christian Europe and the muslim lands barren except for one religion each, while Hindu India is and has always been a polyglot of hundreds of religions. This is not an accident.

For over 200 years of American Independence, the President and his entire cabinet has been 99% christian with a Jewish person or an atheist thrown in from time to time. In the 60 years that India has been Independent, the opposite has been true - Almost every religion has been represented in India's cabinet. India is the only country in this entire world that is being headed by a man belonging to a minority faith. Again not an accident, these things could have occured in only a Hindu Country.

 

[Humanistheart]

This is probably true. It's the hindi flexibility and acceptance that gives it the potential to be great. Although India is facing some serious problems right now, hopefully they shall rise to the occation and wow us all again.

 

[spiritualseva]

good points

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

No Buddhism without Hinduism

Absolutely correct as the basis of Gautama learning was here a tree cannot grow without roots and the more rooted it is the higher it grows, yes, it can grow higher than the plant from where this seed originated!

Love & rgds

 

[SugaCubez352]

"No Buddhism without Hinduism"

I disagree. First what is "Hinduism?" The tradition of the Vedas or the Upanishads? Or both?

The Veda and Upanishads were written at different times. During the time of Buddha and Mahavira (Jainism's reviver) there was no "Hinduism" there was "Brahmanism" which based its traditions on the Rg Veda and such earlier works of the Vedas. Most of the Upanishads were written AFTER Buddha and Mahavira.

The older Vedic traditions per the Brahmins was similar to old Judaism in which the priests ruled the lives of people and that salvation was dependent on obedience to religious laws and sacrificial himsa (sacrifice of animals) to gods... as the Jews sacrificed animals to their god.

Many scholars attributes the Doctrine of A-himsa NOT to Hinduism, but to Jainism. It was only later that the Upanishads adopted Ahimsa.

Reincarnation was not a staple of the older vedas:

"Despite this historical problem, it seems quite certain that the idea of reincarnation had its origin in the ancient speculative philosophies of India. Although some Hindu scholars insist that the oldest of the Hindu scriptures, the Samhitas, teach reincarnation, no clear statement of the doctrine can be found in them. The majority of experts agree that the pervasive teaching of the Vedas is that of resurrection and immortality with the gods, similar to that which is found in other polytheistic religions of the time. On the whole, it would seem fair to suppose that if the early Vedas do not specifically define or speak of reincarnation, the idea was not taught by the early Aryans, who wrote these first Hindu scriptures." - source: http://www.ccel.us/reincarnation.chap3.html

Who or what tradition first taught the concept of reincarnation? When exactly did the idea of rebirth and reincarnation find its way into "Hinduism?" What year were those writings written in: before or after Shramana, Jainism and Buddhism?

Buddha or the people who invented Buddhism, spent most of their time refuting Vedic practices. But later the Upanishads that were writen after Jainism and Buddhism has similar ideas to Jainism and Buddhism, and in many cases also rejects older Vedic practices (such as sacrificial himsa):

"Ultimately, the sramana philosophical concepts like ahimsa, karma, re-incarnation, renunciation, samsara and moksa were accepted and incorporated by the brahmans in their beliefs and practices, eg. by abandoning the sacrifice of animals." - source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana

Many Western and "Hindu" scholars also believe that Jainism and Buddhism are direct continuations of the Shramana Tradition which has existed independent of and parallel to the Vedic tradition.

The ancient Greeks and Romans wrote about the Buddhists and referred to them as "Sramano," or "Samana." Young Novice monks under the age of 20 in Theravada Buddhism are called Samanera meaning "Little Samana" (Samana being the Pali form of the Sanskrit Shramana).

Some scholars in the West go so far as to say that the Shramana tradition is older than the Vedic Tradition and "Aryan Invation" going all the way back to the Indus Valley civilization:

"Several śramaṇa movements are known to have existed before the 6th century C.E. dating back to Indus valley civilization, where they peaked during the times of Mahavira and Buddha."- source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana

Most scholars generally agree that the Vedic/Upanishadic and Shramanic Traditions have co-existed side by side in India and have influenced and inspired each other over the many centuries and millennia of their co-existence. No scholar believes that the Shramanic Tradition came out of Hinduism.

True: Buddhism and Jainism share many things in common with Hinduism... but Hinduism shares many things in common with Jainism and Buddhism. But Buddhism did not come out of Hinduism. Buddhism was not a reactionary movement against Brahmanism. It has its roots - with Jainism - in the Shramana tradition, which is independent and its own thing, in its own right.

 

[Riverwolf]

No Buddhism without Hinduism... and likewise, no Hinduism without Buddhism.

Both are interdependent in my opinion.

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Sugacubez,

Was Chhandogya, Shvetashvatara, Katha, Mandukya, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad after Lord Buddha/Mahavira?? Please get your facts straight....

In most of the Scriptures of Sanatana Dharma including Ramayana, Srimad Bhagvatam Purana etc etc principles of many Upanishads are taken. Sanatana Dharma Scriptures itself decried sacrifice of animals for aspirants of Moksha; but I agree that Jainism strengthened that in modern times.

Kindly do not tell me either that Lord Buddha was the first to pursue meditation or give the Pancha Sheela principles. Pick up any Dharna Shashtra and u will find the same Panch Sheela. Also the Yoga given by Hiranyagarbha Rishi and the Patanjali Rishi are much older and meditation is just one aspect of it. Yes, various techniques of meditation were developed by Buddhism.

"Western scholars" can say whatever they like...... does not make it the truth; just as the Aryan invasion is challenged to be a hoax.

Lord Buddha is taken as an Avatar and reverred by Hindus. The Buddhism which was once a dominant religion in India- thanks to Emperor Ashoka who adopted it, was reduced to almost extinction now in India.......... sometimes ask the question... WHY??

I am not saying that Buddhism came out of Hinduism just out of respect for Buddhists who strongly want their religion's distinct identity. But to say that Karma, re-incarnation, Ahimsa, Moksha etc came later into Sanatana Dharma is a far fetch........ the sources u have quoted are all western sources. Just pick up any of the above Scriptures I mentioned...... just pick up blindly ANY scripture which YOU think was before Lord Buddha and Lord Mahavira and I will show you ALL these concepts in it. If you think that Hinduism and its entire scriptures were generated after Lord Buddha and Lord Mahavira, then I have nothing to tell..........

Also, kindly prove that Vedas are MAINLY "himsa" in nature- i.e animal sacrifice. Anyone who has even made a quick glance at the Vedas will disagree with this statement. By the way..... where is Ahimsa principle in the Upanishads-- which "later Upanishad" are you talking about? Most of the Buddhists now are non vegeterians.... where is "ahimsa" of Lord Buddha??

Lord Buddha and the first Tirthamkar of Jainism- Lord Rishabhdev both are regarded as Avatar by the Hindu Scriptures. Lord Rishabhdev who got his enlightenment near Mt Kailash- Asthapad was born wayyyyy before Lord Mahavira (24th Tirthamkar) and he was born before Lord Buddha. Lord Rishabhdev's teachings are described in great details in Sanatana Dharma scriptures. Sanatana Dharma mentions many Avatars before Rishabhdev too. By the way, Jains believe that the first Tirthamkar Rishabhdev was many millions of years ago.

Just like the "Shramana" you mention, ascetic order has been present in Sanatana Dharma since age unknown. Kindly note that these ascetics do not follow ALL the Vedic rituals either; they have their own Dharmas- hence ther are not "contradicting" the Vedas. As such, what a real ascetic does is dharma.

Regards,

 

[nameless]

Buddha just reinvented Hinduism in the form of Buddhism, the Hinduism at the time of Buddha was like present day Buddhism. When gone deep into vedic scriptures, it can be found that Buddha has not thought anything new. Every single term or concept that Buddha has used, has its meaning in sanskrit, means those teachings existed even before the arrival of Gautama.

 

[SugaCubez352]

Friend Sugacubez,

Was Chhandogya, Shvetashvatara, Katha, Mandukya, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad after Lord Buddha/Mahavira?? Please get your facts straight....

Regards,

Let us take due note that when I offered an alternative that I presented my opinions with what support and back up I could find.

Let us take due note thereof that when you retorted to my alternatives that you provided no support or or back up. You make opinions and claims based on convictions and fairy tails telling me Jain founders go back a million years. This defies conventional Western science where it is believed that - according to genetics - our current species: Homo Sapiens as we are biologically today is roughly ONLY 200,000 years old.

Would you be so kind as to explain to me what species these Jain founders were LMAO. And also: do you use fairy tale scriptures to date your holy books as well? If I used fairy tales from my Buddhist scriptures, seeing that the Tipitakas speaks of many, many life times of the Buddha, I would say that Buddhism is a million years old lol.

I provided back up to support my opinions. If you have disagreements, then it is your responsibility to provide evidence to support your claims. I am open minded and open to being incorrect. But please show a little honor and decorum.

I will make it easy for you and pretend that the Buddha never existed. Let us say that "Buddhism" came into existence during the reign of Emperor Ashoka shall we?

Give me a list of Upanishads written before and after Ashoka please with dates of writing.

I cannot accept anything at face value or just because somebody is passionate about their opinions. Lets be rational here. Religion is already irrational as it is.

Thank you

 

[zenzero]

Friend Sugcubex,

seeing that the Tipitakas speaks of many, many life times of the Buddha, I would say that Buddhism is a million years old lol.

Personally it is not important to know which came first the chicken or the egg.
Buddha simply means the AWAKENED one and humans since as you mentioned evolved some 2,00,000 years ago am sure even before a million years some where awakened ones whom we can label as Buddhas. If not Gautama would have straight away gone to a buddhist monastery from his palace to learn the middle path which existed as you mention during all the million years.
Personally only TRUTH that one becomes a part of is the only consideration as how so ever you may break molecules into they all remain part of that universal energy and minds will perceive in the way which is untrue as when the individual is in the no-mind He becomes a part of that one TRUTH and so there is no-mind to perceive any longer.
Coming to the basics, yes did find your study of buddhism and understanding of pali to be deep which helps in enhancing one's own awareness/ consciousness and in effect those around through out the universe.
Personally would appeal to everyone to keep discussions as close to DHARMA alone which is universal and has numerous ways or paths or religions; one can even chart his own path to the summit with help from those who have reached there before and in any case when we all have the potential all that is required to tune ourselves to be the medium for the source to get back itself.
This reminds me of a story in Sanatan Dharma when a reward was announced by Parvati for his two sons Kartick and Ganesh who so ever traveled round the universe the fastest and so Kartick sat on his peacock immediately to set out to cover it the fastest. Ganesh simply held his mother Parvatis *pallu* [end part of a sari which is left loose behind the womens shoulder and turned around his mother stating, Mother itself is the universe and going around the mother itself is covering the distance. Likewise one can short circuit the journey as one never knows the number of lives one has been in this universe and gone through so many paths/ways and gurus that they have become irrelevant and so not a must for everyone. One can directly linkup with the universal energy at any moment HERE-NOW!
Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Sugacubez,

U know that no one will be able to give u an accurate time of the Upanishads - google the names I have mentioned and u will find them older then Lord Buddha's Avatar at the very least- by currently available evidence; asking for an exact date is a non starter. But since u ask for "evidence"- just put in Wiki the above names- they are atleast 100-200 years BEFORE the 500BC; Lord Buddha was from about 560BC to 480 BC. Hence they ARE older than Buddhism.

If you notice, there are eight Avatars in Hinduism BEFORE Rishabhdev; and 22 Avatars BEFORE Lord Buddha. That itself tells u which is older. Taking time of existence of Lord Krishna which is estimated by at least 5000 yrs ago (this can be found with evidence over the internet- google it)- just take the BG or Srimad Bhagvatam. Even sage Vyasa was before Lord Buddha if u say that the Scriptures were written by Sage Vyasa. I have narrowed it down to these two scriptures WHICH WERE before Lord Buddha. Now tell me which one you need to know- Ahimsa, re-incarnation, karma- I will give u the page which mentions it.

By the way, since u need "scientific evidence" here is one link which puts Mahabharata War and hence Bhagvad Gita wayyyyy before Lord Buddha- The Scientific Dating of the Mahabharat War

If you do not believe the above link, u can put Mahabharata war in Wi-Ki and see that it is earlier than Lord Buddha (800-900 BC- this is the western estimate by the way if you trust it.)

About the fairy tales- the western "scientific evidence" is a fairy tale in itself- one day it is right and the next day it is proven wrong. Who said the Homosapiens CONCLUSIVELY are 200k years old? That is just a current THINKING and there is no "conclusion" as u put it.

Scientific evidence is not always "conclusive" although it is a starter. Science has not even found a cure for common cold by the way.... lol

About the Jainism.... I am not a Jain- that is something I read about Jainism thinking.

Regards,

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I would argue that Lord Buddha never intended his teachings to be developed into another religion. I'd argue the Buddha was still a Hindu, or Brahman, if it'll make suga cubez happy.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Would anyone doubt that if the Buddha had been born in Europe or Muslim lands in the middle ages, he would have been branded a heretic and burned at the stake, dying a horrible death? His teachings consigned to the fire, to be lost forever! There would be no Buddhism today!

That might be very well true, but such a path as Siddhartha Gautama discovered what is undiscovered could be realised eventually.

And what do we Hindus do to the man who rejected Hinduism? Why, make him a God, of course! Imagine the greatness of a faith that saw divinity in a man who rejects it's teachings! Go back a few hundred years and you see christian Europe and the muslim lands barren except for one religion each, while Hindu India is and has always been a polyglot of hundreds of religions. This is not an accident.

For over 200 years of American Independence, the President and his entire cabinet has been 99% christian with a Jewish person or an atheist thrown in from time to time. In the 60 years that India has been Independent, the opposite has been true - Almost every religion has been represented in India's cabinet. India is the only country in this entire world that is being headed by a man belonging to a minority faith. Again not an accident, these things could have occured in only a Hindu Country.

I agree with Humanistheheart, and that India will rise and wow us again indeed and demonstrate it to the world.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Buddha just reinvented Hinduism in the form of Buddhism, the Hinduism at the time of Buddha was like present day Buddhism. When gone deep into vedic scriptures, it can be found that Buddha has not thought anything new. Every single term or concept that Buddha has used, has its meaning in sanskrit, means those teachings existed even before the arrival of Gautama.

Buddhism as developed by Siddhartha Gautama does not take part in the Hindu pantheon in spite of it being attributed to the latter as per opinion. From my understanding, this is due to people being released from oppressiveness of tradition and orthodoxy prevalent in a dominated caste society due to the inviolable and indisputable nature of Vedic religion. I don't see the compatibility in this although I do see a relationship here. -NM-

 

[SugaCubez352]

Friend Sugacubez,

By the way, since u need "scientific evidence" here is one link which puts Mahabharata War and hence Bhagvad Gita wayyyyy before Lord Buddha- The Scientific Dating of the Mahabharat War

Regards,

The fact that the Trojan War happened or that WWII happened, and the fact that accounts of it were written, does not put the the actual occurrence and account in the same time period lol:

***quote source***

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bhagavad Gita [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] (1st c. BC-2nd c. AD)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Author[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Anonymous member(s) of the ruling Brahmin class in India sometime between the first century BC and the second century AD[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Time & Place[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Between the first century BC and the second century AD. India.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contexts[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Story based on traditional narratives about the war between the Pandava clan and the Kauravas (led by the blind patriarch Dhritarastra of Hastinapura); battle of Kuruksetra (traditionally dated around 1302 BC)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hinduism: traditional religion of India evolved from Vedism, a set of texts, cults, and doctrines going back to the 2nd millenium BC[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Traditional Hinduism's strict, hierarchical caste system: Brahmins (ruling class of priests), ksatriyas (warriors); vaisyas (farmers, herders, merchants), sudras (servants and slaves), pariahs (outcasts, untouchables); membership in caste determined by birth; emphasis on obedience and performance of one's dharma (duty) within the caste of one's birth; belief in reincarnation and transmigration of souls from one kind of body to another (samsara)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Buddhism, religion which arose in India as a reaction against the inequalities and rigidities of Hinduism. Based on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha), a sage who was active sometime between the 6th and the 4th c. BC.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Caste system undermined by egalitarian character of Buddhism; Buddhism emphasized the idea of karma (destiny determined by one's actions), the extinguishing of passion/desire, peaceful coexistence with all living things, and enlightenment [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The Bhagavad Gita was crafted by members of the Brahmin caste in an effort to counteract the rising influence of Buddhism; new concepts: karma yoga ("discipline of action"), dutiful, disciplined action without personal desire, sacred duty; bhakti yoga ("discipline of devotion") [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Leaning in the direction of Buddhism and the voice of Arjuna (pacifism, the sanctity of all life), Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) interpreted the Bhagavad Gita as supporting the doctrine of non-violent resistance[/FONT]
​

Source: Bhagavad Gita


***end quote***






​

The 1st centry BC-2nd Century AD appears to come AFTER the Buddha and Ashoka doesn't it?



"Thus though all the puranas are attributed to Vyasadeva himself, the texts of the eighteen puranas were written by various disciples. This has resulted in some differences between the texts. Moreover, most of these texts that we see today in their present and final form were rewritten with many interpolations between 300AD and 1000AD. But earlier versions of the puranas were in existence even during 500BC. This also explains the differences and contradictions between the puranas. Hence to take everything in the puranas as final or authentic in a historical or factual sense may be erroneous." - Dr.Satya Prakash Choudhary's - Yoga, Vedanta, Vedic astrology, Ayurveda, Karma, Dharma, Buddha, Jyotish, Psychology, Spirituality, Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary, Chowdhary, Chowdary


"These Upanishads are classified to two by him. (1) Composed before the period of Buddha and (2) composed after the period of Buddha. He traces the time of composition of the first group to a period lying between the Vedic period and the emergence of Buddhism. Aitareya, Kau****aki, Taittiriya period, Chaandogya, Brihadaranyaka, and some parts of Kena are included in the first group. The remaining parts (mantras 1 to 3) of Kena, Some portions of Brihadaaranyaka, and the entire Katha, Maandookya, Maitraayani, Swetaswatara,and Isavaasya represent a period posterior to Buddha." - kasaragodvartha: sakalam. First Malayalam News website for local news, views, citizen jounalism, ethnicity, art & culture

What I am interested in is the spiritual, philosophical, and new religious concepts introduced by those Upanishads written AFTER the Buddha.

"A book called the Bhagavad Gita (or “song of the lord&#8221 was written around 200 BC by an unknown author. It restored Hinduism by addressing many of its weaknesses. It helped Hinduism to overcome the challenge posed by Buddhism by combining the best of Buddhist and Hindu ideas. It continues today to give Hinduism its best defense against other religions. In order to preserve and popularize the book, it was inserted into an epic story about a civil war for control of an ancient kingdom. In the story, a soldier returns from battle to explain to the king that his army has been defeated and that all of his princes are dead." - Shattering the Sacred Myths - Hinduism and Buddhism


200BC comes AFTER the period of the Buddha and Ashoka.


"Vedanta and Buddhism have lived side by side for such a long time that obviously they must have influenced each other. The strong predilection of the Indian mind for a doctrine of universal unity (monism) has led the representatives of Mahayana to conceive Samsara and Nirvana as two aspects of the same and single true reality; for Nagarjuna the empirical world is a mere appearance, as all dharmas, manifest in it, are perishable and conditioned by other dharmas, without having any independent existence of their own. Only the indefinable "Voidness" (sunyata) to be grasped in meditation, and realized in Nirvana, has true reality." - Vedanta and Buddhism: A Comparative Study


See it's fine with me if Hinduism needs to associate itself with Buddhism in saying that Buddhism came out of Hinduism. But the question is: can Hinduism stand on its own without having to use Buddhism as a crutch? Buddhism does not need or use Hinduism as a crutch you see?

 

[Madhuri]

I have looked at so many sources, both online and published educational texts and they all give different dates to when scriptures were written and when personalities lived. I don't trust any of those dates, including from your sources SugaCubes, because of this. I want convincing evidence as to how those dates were arrived at.

 

[SugaCubez352]

I want convincing evidence as to how those dates were arrived at.

Me too. I'll go further and demand to know when exactly memes such as Ahimsa, Karma, Reincarnation, and such entered "Hinduism." I'd like to know, and see real convincing evidence, instead of this stuff about how Hinduism is a million years old. Take note that at least I am trying to work with dates and facts, whereas my friend Satsangi is using opinions, religions convictions, and random unsupported information. At least I am trying to work with "facts" and dates.

 

[Madhuri]

Me too. I'll go further and demand to know when exactly memes such as Ahimsa, Karma, Reincarnation, and such entered "Hinduism." I'd like to know, and see real convincing evidence, instead of this stuff about how Hinduism is a million years old.

There are sources that date the Rig Veda about 10 thousand years (being the oldest known Hindu scripture) but Hinduism, in my opinion, is definitely not millions of years old. If you trust astronomical dating, the Ramayana can be placed around 7 thousand years ago rather than 2 million which is what I was brought up believing.

 

[SugaCubez352]

You just said this to me just under a minute ago:

I want convincing evidence as to how those dates were arrived at.

Now you tell me the Rg Veda is 10,000 years old:

There are sources that date the Rig Veda about 10 thousand years (being the oldest known Hindu scripture) but Hinduism, in my opinion, is definitely not millions of years old. If you trust astronomical dating, the Ramayana can be placed around 7 thousand years ago rather than 2 million which is what I was brought up believing.

I really have to ask: What where cavemen writing with and on, and what alphabet were they using during the last ice age?

See the difference is that when I state my opinion, I go to the trouble of looking for links as a means to support what I said. You just blurt out an opinion without support or links... yet you demand for exact methodology of dating?

 

[Madhuri]

You just said this to me just under a minute ago:



Now you tell me the Rg Veda is 10,000 years old:



I really have to ask: What where cavemen writing with and on, and what alphabet were they using during the last ice age?

See the difference is that when I state my opinion, I go to the trouble of looking for links as a means to support what I said. You just blurt out an opinion without support or links... yet you demand for exact methodology of dating?

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything other than that I do not support the ideas that Hinduism is millions of years old. I can provide you with sources if you want me to, but I would like to ask if you trust astronomical dating methods.