No Evidence for 1st Century Nazareth

[fallingblood]

Jesus of Nazareth no. Jesus the Nazarene yes. Translation problems, it's so insignificant.

No. Not a translation problem. The NT states quite clearly that Jesus was from the town of Nazareth. It is quite clear that Nazareth was a town, and that is the place Jesus was known to be from.

More so, there is no evidence Jesus was a Nazarene. If we compare what we can know about Nazarenes from the sources we have, with what we know about Jesus, and we can see that they just don't compare.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*sigh*

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No. Not a translation problem. The NT states quite clearly that Jesus was from the town of Nazareth. It is quite clear that Nazareth was a town, and that is the place Jesus was known to be from.

More so, there is no evidence Jesus was a Nazarene. If we compare what we can know about Nazarenes from the sources we have, with what we know about Jesus, and we can see that they just don't compare.

The member was referring to the Talmud variation "Nazarene," which obviously refers to Nazareth.

I would respect another opinion, but it seems to me that it's an idiotic mistake to read it as "Nazarene" in the sense of one who has taken a Nazarite vow.

In this case we need to remember that the copyist was writing at least 300 years after the fact, and as you know, perhaps even 1000 years or more depending on the text. The point is that some variants of the Talmud have Nazarene or Nazareth, indicating that the fabrication that Nazareth does not appear in the Talmud is patently false.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No. Not a translation problem. The NT states quite clearly that Jesus was from the town of Nazareth. It is quite clear that Nazareth was a town, and that is the place Jesus was known to be from.
More so, there is no evidence Jesus was a Nazarene. If we compare what we can know about Nazarenes from the sources we have, with what we know about Jesus, and we can see that they just don't compare.

What is the difference between a Nazarene and a Nazirite ?

Jesus was a Nazarene being from Nazareth,
but Jesus was never a Nazirite as was John the Baptist.

 

[godnotgod]

No. Not a translation problem. The NT states quite clearly that Jesus was from the town of Nazareth. It is quite clear that Nazareth was a town, and that is the place Jesus was known to be from.

More so, there is no evidence Jesus was a Nazarene. If we compare what we can know about Nazarenes from the sources we have, with what we know about Jesus, and we can see that they just don't compare.

Now we come around in the circle again. I explained that. Your 'Jesus' is fiction. He is the product of gooping over the pure and simple teachings of the real Yeshua with the sensationalist doctrines of virgin birth, bodily resurrection, the eating/drinking of flesh and blood, and the redemption of sin via of blood sacrifice, all of which came to Christianity via the mystery religions, such as Mithraism. That is why your Jesus does not resemble Yeshua, the Essene, of the sub-sect, Nazarenes:

The Essenes, The Nazarenes

At the time of Jesus, there were three major Jewish Sects. The Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were relatively similar in their beliefs and traditions, but the Essenes were radically different and openly opposed the theology, doctrines, and the spiritual integrity of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

There are numerous historical, literary and archaeological accounts of the existence of the Essenes, yet the bible is strangely silent about them. We know of their specific geographic locations throughout Egypt and ancient Palestine, we know of their customs and traditions, and we know the details of their deeply rooted spiritual convictions and of their esoteric religious beliefs.

The word Essene is a collective term and is not necessarily a distinctive designation, just as the word Christian encompasses a wide base of institutionalized systems of religious beliefs, attitudes and practices. There are currently over 34,000 separate Christian groups that have been identified throughout the world. Most are independent churches.

At the time of Jesus, there were three distinct Essenian groups that played important roles in his life, and their religious practices and spiritual theology mirror in his teachings. They were:

The Theraputae* of Egypt; where the infant Christ and his family fled during Herods rein.

The Essenes of Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls), the strict, celibate monastery of which John the Baptist was a part.

The Nazarenes of Mount Carmel, the cooperative family village where Jesus [Yeshua] lived and studied.

Josephus and other classic writers tell us of the Essenes and their intense appreciation for the inspired Law of God and that they "strove to be like the angels of heaven." They also opposed slavery, the sacrificing of animals and the eating of flesh. Their highest aim was to become fit temples of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 6:19), to be healers and perform cures, especially spiritual cures, and to be spiritually qualified as forerunners of the Messiah, the latter being the primary spiritual focus of the Nazarenes of Mount Carmel.

Nazarene or Nazareth?

* It is believed that Yeshua received his knowledge of healing from the Therapeutae, derived from a sect of Buddhism known in India as the Theravada. The Buddhist King, Asoka, sent missionaries westward to establish these monasteries in Egypt and Greece, who become known as Therapeutae.

 

[godnotgod]

What is a Nazarene?

He shall be called a Nazarene. ~Matt 2:23

Nazarene is the title by which Jesus and his followers were referred to. The word 'Christian' was never used by Jesus or used to describe those who followed him.

In the New Testament book of Acts, Paul is tried in Caesarea, and Tertullus is reported as saying:

"We have, in fact, found this man a pestilent fellow, an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5, New Revised Standard Version).

It is clear that "Christian" was not the earliest term for the followers of Jesus, since Acts 11:26 reports its first use in Antioch - at a time and in a place at least 10 and possibly 20 or more years after the death of Jesus.

Many authors have argued that "Nazarene" was not just one term that was used, but the dominant term, and that it was also used to describe Jesus himself. The chief argument for this claim rests on an interpretation of the way Jesus is referred to by the writers of the gospels. The original Greek forms of all four gospels call him, in places, "Iesou Nazarene" (e.g. Matthew 26:71; Mark 1:24, 10:47, 14:67; Luke 4:34; John 17:5; Acts 2:22).

Translations of the Bible, from the fifth century Vulgate on, have generally rendered this into a form equivalent to "Jesus of Nazareth." However, it is not the only possible translation. Linguistically, "Jesus the Nazarene" would be at least as correct, and some critics have argued that it is more plausible given that city of Nazareth seems to have not existed at the time of Jesus; it is unmentioned in any contemporary history and it is not possible to prove its early existence other than by reference to the gospels.

The Vulgate does use a form equivalent to "Nazarene" in one verse (Matthew 2:23), where its reading is Nazaroeus (Nazoraios), but here the original Greek has the word Nazarene on its own, without Iesou.

However we translate these verses from the gospels, the evidence from Acts 24 does support the claim that "Nazarene" was an early term for the followers of Jesus. But it does not appear to have been the term most used by those followers: the earliest Christian writings we have, the letters of Paul (which predate the gospels by ten to forty years), use the phrase "followers of the way" or, by far the most common, "the church."

http://www.essene.com/What is a Nazarene.htm

 

[godnotgod]

Footnote: How is it that the phrase 'He shall be called a Nazarene', a statement of notoriety and prestige, refer to the town of Nazareth at that time, a place so small, insignificant, and obscure as to be virtually non-existent?

I think it is rather obvious that the phrase refers to his belonging to the sect of the Nazarenes, as there was nothing of any import in Nazareth to associate with his personage.

 

[godnotgod]

It is quite clear that Nazareth was a town, and that is the place Jesus was known to be from.

Yes indeed! I am so happy that the ruins of such a magnificent city, replete with its glorious synagogue where the Messiah preached, have finally been unearthed. The sheer number of dwellings and city buildings is staggering, not to mention the innumerable number of precious artifacts! What a bustling city it must have been! GeeJuzz must have had plenty of carpentry jobs.

Say! Do you suppose he may have made a bundle of cash with his carpentry business and went on a long vacation during those 18 missing years? There WERE reports, you know, of sightings all through Persia, Tibet, China, and India....or was that Elvis? I always seem to confuse the two fellows.

Can you imagine that? The Son of God himself, and not a peep out of him for 18 long years. My! What discipline he must have had to have remained so perfectly anonymous, almost...well...almost as if...he did'nt exist at all!

Hmmmmm?....say...you don't suppose....nah¡

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes indeed! I am so happy that the ruins of such a magnificent city, replete with its glorious synagogue where the Messiah preached, have finally been unearthed. The sheer number of dwellings and city buildings is staggering, not to mention the innumerable number of precious artifacts! What a bustling city it must have been! GeeJuzz must have had plenty of carpentry jobs.

Say! Do you suppose he may have made a bundle of cash with his carpentry business and went on a long vacation during those 18 missing years? There WERE reports, you know, of sightings all through Persia, Tibet, China, and India....or was that Elvis? I always seem to confuse the two fellows.

Can you imagine that? The Son of God himself, and not a peep out of him for 18 long years. My! What discipline he must have had to have remained so perfectly anonymous, almost...well...almost as if...he did'nt exist at all!

Hmmmmm?....say...you don't suppose....nah¡

If this were a joke, it would almost be funny.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Footnote: How is it that the phrase 'He shall be called a Nazarene', a statement of notoriety and prestige, refer to the town of Nazareth at that time, a place so small, insignificant, and obscure as to be virtually non-existent?

I think it is rather obvious that the phrase refers to his belonging to the sect of the Nazarenes, as there was nothing of any import in Nazareth to associate with his personage.

First, Nazareth gained noteriety and prestige precisely because Jesus gained so many followers. It's not that early followers of Jesus wanted to associate Jesus with a great town - the town became associated with a great man (in the sense that many followed him) because he came from there.

Second, Nazarenes were not a sect.

 

[fallingblood]

Yes indeed! I am so happy that the ruins of such a magnificent city, replete with its glorious synagogue where the Messiah preached, have finally been unearthed. The sheer number of dwellings and city buildings is staggering, not to mention the innumerable number of precious artifacts! What a bustling city it must have been! GeeJuzz must have had plenty of carpentry jobs.

Say! Do you suppose he may have made a bundle of cash with his carpentry business and went on a long vacation during those 18 missing years? There WERE reports, you know, of sightings all through Persia, Tibet, China, and India....or was that Elvis? I always seem to confuse the two fellows.

Can you imagine that? The Son of God himself, and not a peep out of him for 18 long years. My! What discipline he must have had to have remained so perfectly anonymous, almost...well...almost as if...he did'nt exist at all!

Hmmmmm?....say...you don't suppose....nah¡

This makes me smile. It makes all of your posts understandable. You just don't have any idea what you're talking about.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This makes me smile. It makes all of your posts understandable. You just don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Yes, but do you know what he's talking about?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Really?

Name the 63 Galilean towns.

Name all of the early rabbinic literature to which you refer.

[it's far easier to spam from a website than actually prove your case. In this respect, I guess, the website that convinced you by actually proving nothing has let you down. But you should have known]

The silence is deafening.

 

[godnotgod]

If this were a joke, it would almost be funny.

Funny? Why, I think it perfectly obvious to everyone that the King has new clothes! Are you blind?

 

[godnotgod]

This makes me smile. It makes all of your posts understandable. You just don't have any idea what you're talking about.

...and if wealth did not come to GeeJuzz via of his carpentry skills, surely the family must have cashed in on that nice bundle of solid gold the 3 Wise Men (or is it Kings?) brought as gifts to the infant GeeJuzz, wealth enough to allow them to slip away unnoticed for an entire 18 years, and spend time carousing on the French Riviera, whining and dining on lobster, caviar, quiche and French champaigne. Why, the little darlings!:yes:

 

[godnotgod]

The silence is deafening.

I am perfectly satisfied with the information re: 63 towns listed in the Talmud. You see, I decided to take your advice, and go with 'generally accepted' ideas, as the allusion to '63 towns and villages' in the Talmud is all over the internet. Granted, much is repeat material, but no one, other than you, seems to be throwing down a red flag. If you wish to go rabbit hunting, here, go fetch:

The Talmud

Next!

 

[godnotgod]

This makes me smile. It makes all of your posts understandable. You just don't have any idea what you're talking about.

What's that you say? GeeJuzz came to you in a vision and told you all about his 18 missing years? Where he traveled to, people he met and raised from the dead? Ah, so THAT'S why you're smiling! Why, you must be one of the Chosen Ones! A prophet, no less! I should have known!:bow::faint::biglaugh:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I am perfectly satisfied with the information re: 63 towns listed in the Talmud. You see, I decided to take your advice, and go with 'generally accepted' ideas, as the allusion to '63 towns and villages' in the Talmud is all over the internet. Granted, much is repeat material, but no one, other than you, seems to be throwing down a red flag. If you wish to go rabbit hunting, here, go fetch:

The Talmud

Next!

I didn't advise you on anything.

And you're NOT following "generally accepted" ideas.

Perhaps what you say is all over the internet.

Spam is rarely true. You're embarrassing yourself.

EDIT: It doesn't matter if I'm the only one who is throwing a "red flag." The point is, you're too lazy to bother and see if what you believe is true. I've already provided two examples of "Nazareth" from the Talmud. The thing is, with idiots who repeat what they've read on the internet don't check their facts and pass it on to the next idiot who doesn't check, you just have a bunch of idiots repeating what they haven't checked. You get the point.

Also, the Talmud is massive. One or two references to Nazareth are quite easy to miss. Especially if you're too lazy to look.

 

[Biblestudent_007]

. . . {bleep! *(*#)@]

 

[godnotgod]

First, Nazareth gained noteriety and prestige precisely because Jesus gained so many followers. It's not that early followers of Jesus wanted to associate Jesus with a great town - the town became associated with a great man (in the sense that many followed him) because he came from there.

That makes no sense. You're obviously making things up; making the tail wag the dog. If Jesus had made his hometown famous due to his popularity, one might say: "and he shall be called a Nazarene" of someone ELSE who lived in Nazareth, but not of the man himself who made the town famous. Besides, as has been pointed out, to indicate that Jesus came from a place called Nazareth, the correct wording would have been Nazarethenos or Nazarethaios.

The truth of the matter is that the 'town of Nazareth' is a famous myth, made famous by Jesus, a famous myth.

Funny how in previous posts you kept repeating how insignificant Nazareth was, and how those who lived near it were simply not interested in it. Now you play up its importance.

Second, Nazarenes were not a sect.

In the New Testament book of Acts, Paul is tried in Caesarea, and Tertullus is reported as saying:

"We have, in fact, found this man a pestilent fellow, an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5, New Revised Standard Version).

*****