tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
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No more immigrants please!
- Thread starter nnmartin
- Start date
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
In all honesty, to be anti-immigrant is to be against your own lineage. Unless you come from an unbroken line of pure native descent, which not too many people do. And if you go back far enough, the only people that don't have any sort of immigrant in them would by those, that is if this scenario is even possible, are a part of an African family that has stayed put and bred with no outsiders for about 200,000 years.
And immigrants aren't really that detrimental to jobs. And certainly not as detrimental as things like free-trade that allow companies to pack up and ship jobs to overseas sweat shops filled with women and children making pennies a day. But since the anti-immigrant crowd loves the big-business schemes you won't hear too many complain about the real problem with a shortage of jobs.
And immigrants aren't really that detrimental to jobs. And certainly not as detrimental as things like free-trade that allow companies to pack up and ship jobs to overseas sweat shops filled with women and children making pennies a day. But since the anti-immigrant crowd loves the big-business schemes you won't hear too many complain about the real problem with a shortage of jobs.
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nnmartin
Well-Known Member
I am a pure child of God!
Clear unbroken purity.
Kick out all the unbelievers, atheists and unworthy and the country will be great again!
nnmartin
Well-Known Member
In the OP I did mention past immigration to be a different issue - I am focusing on the here and now really in this debate.
And yes, I am having a swipe at the free trade system in general - the sweat shops and outsourcing you mention is equally immoral and corrupt.
It's all about profits for the rich - for most people, one's life is not much better than it was 50 years ago (unless of course you dwell in the higher echelons of society in which case it is way better)
Big deal if nowadays we all have a DVD player and colour tv - when you have to work 45+ hours in the cardboard box factory or wipe 10 year old rich kids' butts for this it's hardly progress.
And yes, I am having a swipe at the free trade system in general - the sweat shops and outsourcing you mention is equally immoral and corrupt.
It's all about profits for the rich - for most people, one's life is not much better than it was 50 years ago (unless of course you dwell in the higher echelons of society in which case it is way better)
Big deal if nowadays we all have a DVD player and colour tv - when you have to work 45+ hours in the cardboard box factory or wipe 10 year old rich kids' butts for this it's hardly progress.
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cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
ECONOMICS
Crash course:
The basics
Microeconomics - The study of market behaviours
Macroeconomics - The study of an economy
Back to your point on immigration. - For independent evidence that immigration does not cause unemployment, try this research which came out today. You will note it is done by economists.
In answer to your question, unemployment is a consequence of a long line of almost inevitable consequences since the Financial crisis in the American housing market. We are still dealing with the fallout from that single event.
This is how the recession got started (Click on each of the blue markers for a brief summary, and click on full story for more). I hope you get a sense of how economies are linked from this.
Simplified example:
I am over simplifying this, but Imagine:
- Your annual salary is £20k, and you have a credit card with £20k on it (Because the banks were eager to lend you money).
- Over the course of a year you spend your 20k on living expenses and the other 20k on clothes.
- The bank realises its lending policy was rash before, and now sees you as high risk so it stops lending you money, your system of credit has collapsed, and you are forced to live within your means and pay your debts.
- The person that made your clothes is now out of work because you cannot afford to buy any more.
- Your debt is now equal to your salary, it is going to be difficult to pay it off, and take a number of years. You will have to control your budget in order to get get back to a point where you can either be self sufficient or satisfy the bank that you are worth lending to again, and can control your finances.
- That clothes man will not get his work back for a long time by the look of it.
Now imagine you are a nation and your wage is every £ the country earned that year.
All the jobs sustained on credit disappear overnight as the demand for goods falls, so the job market falls, meaning the demand for goods falls further, so the jobs market falls further etc and it spirals down until the goods produced in the jobs market meets the demand for goods by purchasers. Supply and Demand.
nnmartin
Well-Known Member
yet even while this was happening the immigrants were still pouring into the country en-masse to keep wages down, and thus the profits and corrupt benefits of the self-serving system in place.
Supply and demand.
Demand for cheap goods and high profits - solution: increase supply of labour.
Make the poor keep the rich in the way they are accustomed to.
Blame the poor for this by telling them they are not competitive enough, are bigots, racists or too stupid to do anything else.
and since when does a link count as an opinion or view?:sarcastic
cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
The link is support of my original claim that immigration did not cause loss of jobs.
I thought you were genuinely interested too, and asking for guidance on economics, so I spent all evening finding stuff I thought might be suitable for a beginner and might help you.
To say I am disappointed in your response is an understatement.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Or we could kick out all the bigots, intolerant, and those who would make others feel unwelcomed. Then life would be so great there would be no need for laws such as ENDA or SNDA, no fights for marriage equality, and any minority group could live without repression. That certainly sounds infinitely better than a place where everyone must be the same and outsiders aren't welcomed.I am a pure child of God!
Clear unbroken purity.
Kick out all the unbelievers, atheists and unworthy and the country will be great again!
nnmartin
Well-Known Member
My post that you responded to did have the sarcastic smiley at the end of it.
From that it should be clear that I was not actually asking for a lesson in beginners economics but was in fact being sarcastic. duh!
a link to a tabloid newspaper (the Independent) - come on, even the Daily Mail has more insight!:sarcastic
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
[youtube]NK0Y9j_CGgM[/youtube]
Dr. Michio Kaku America Has A Secret Weapon - YouTube
The weakness is ...
cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
Hmmm your sarcasm is ironic since it implies you know what you are talking about, but your argument betrays you because it fall in line with the popular arguments used by the ill educated, and not the well rounded arguments proposed by people who study the economy. It is full of assumption and assassination, and would not gain an F if used in an economic paper. It is the kind of tittle tattle peddled by political activists picked up by the mainstream press and passed on to the lay person, but it has very little grounding in reality.
With regard to the newspapers, no one would seriously compare the two newspapers and conclude the mail was superior unless they really had not read one or both of them.
The Independent is aimed upmarket readers and is part of the elite quality press alongside the times and the guardian. It has in-depth editorial with plenty of insight, particularly on social issues for which it is famed , while the daily mail is middle market paper and is part of the mainstream press with basic reporting, moderate editorial with some insight.
The reason I gave you that link was because it was from a reputable source and was very recent, which is what one aims to do when looking for quality information.
Ironic that you did not understand that
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
[youtube]NK0Y9j_CGgM[/youtube]
Dr. Michio Kaku America Has A Secret Weapon - YouTube
The weakness is ...
Dr Kaku makes an important point.
It is only in countries like Germany who understand that education must continue at a high level, right on to the production line, that are doing well today. In some regard they are supporting the whole of Europe.
It is this high level of technical skill and education that ensures employment and growth industries.
We in the UK sold both Rolls Royce and Bentley to German companies. They were loss making. Today they are both growing and profitable under German ownership. The German system makes a high wage, high end , economy work.
we each need both an advanced work ethic and Educational ethic, it is no use to have one with out the other, to have neither is disaster.
nnmartin
Well-Known Member
that may well be true so how does shipping in boatloads of uneducated immigrants from Eastern Europe help the situation in the UK?
Can't really see how they can be helping the talent pool - just creating more disaffected youth who are now even less inclined to learn a trade which may not even have a job at the end of it due to oversupply of labour.
cabelscavenger: I'd put the Independent newspaper about half-way between Mail and Times.
Can't really see how they can be helping the talent pool - just creating more disaffected youth who are now even less inclined to learn a trade which may not even have a job at the end of it due to oversupply of labour.
cabelscavenger: I'd put the Independent newspaper about half-way between Mail and Times.
lunakilo
Well-Known Member
So how does uneducated immigrants from Eastern Europe take jobs from people who have learned a trade (and thus are educated)?
Or are you implying that craftspeople are uneducated?
McBell
Unbound
Seems to me that you either did not read your own linked article or have chosen to ignore the parts of your own linked article you dislike.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
A majority of the Eastern Europeans who come here are very well qualified. By our standards overly so. Many are also experienced and skilled craftsmen.
Many Qualified Professionals are prepared to take on technicians roles to support their families.
The Real problem is with British candidates who are both under qualified or who's starting expectatins are too high for the skill they offer.
The European union is open for any British person to ply their trade. The door opens both ways. But you do need the skill, the qualification and the work ethic to compete.
