No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[JustWondering]

The philosophers also got their knowledge and wisdom from God and religion and through them people adopted spiritual teachings. Are you saying these great men are deluded and stupid? They acknowledged God and their renown is unquestioned worldwide.So these renowned men all followed leprechauns and unicorns?

"Verily, the philosophers have not denied the Ancient of Days.

Consider Hippocrates, the physician. He was one of the eminent philosophers who believed in God and acknowledged His sovereignty. After him came Socrates who was indeed wise, accomplished and righteous. He practised self-denial, repressed his appetites for selfish desires and turned away from material pleasures. He withdrew to the mountains where he dwelt in a cave. He dissuaded men from worshipping idols and taught them the way of God, the Lord of Mercy, until the ignorant rose up against him. They arrested him and put him to death in prison. Thus relateth to thee this swift-moving Pen. What a penetrating vision.


After Socrates came the divine Plato who was a pupil of the former and occupied the chair of philosophy as his successor. He acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs which pervade all that hath been and shall be. Then came Aristotle, the well-known man of knowledge. He it is who discovered the power of gaseous matter. These men who stand out as leaders of the people and are pre-eminent among them, one and all acknowledged their belief in the immortal Being Who holdeth in His grasp the reins of all sciences.

I will also mention for thee the invocation voiced by Bálinus who was familiar with the theories put forward by the Father of Philosophy...

This man hath said: ‘I am Bálinus, the wise one, the performer of wonders, the producer of talismans.’ He surpassed everyone else in the diffusion of arts and sciences and soared unto the loftiest heights of humility and supplication.

Give ear unto that which he hath said, entreating the All-Possessing, the Most Exalted:

‘I stand in the presence of my Lord, extolling His gifts and bounties and praising Him with that wherewith He praiseth His Own Self, that I may become a source of blessing and guidance unto such men as acknowledge my words.’

And further he saith: ‘O Lord! Thou art God and no God is there but Thee. Thou art the Creator and no creator is there except Thee. Assist me by Thy grace and strengthen me. My heart is seized with alarm, my limbs tremble, I have lost my reason and my mind hath failed me. Bestow upon me strength and enable my tongue to speak forth with wisdom.’

And still further he saith: ‘Thou art in truth the Knowing, the Wise, the Powerful, the Compassionate.’

It was this man of wisdom who became informed of the mysteries of creation and discerned the subtleties which lie enshrined in the Hermetic writings."

Tablets of Baha'u'llah

For such a long winded reply you still failed to address my post or the topic of this thread. Kind of impressive in a way, I guess.

 

[Laika]

I question how the virgin birth could have been a Byzantine invention, when the Byzantines as such didn't even exist until the 300's, while the Gospels were in their final forms around 150 AD.

I was wrong. I grossly oversimplified this. Sorry.

This is something my dad told me after reading a book ( "women in purple" I think) which is about female Byzantine rulers. The virgin birth was not a Byzantine invention but what I was referring to was actually how it concerned the way in which the cult of the Virgin Mary was used to establish political legitimacy for women. (This is Similar to how the theological symbolism surrounding Queen Elizabeth I of englad as the "virgin queen" was used part of political questions regarding whom she would marry or if she would marry at all).

The second council of Ephesus in 449 to resolve a conflict between nestorious as archbishop of Constantinople and Cyril the patriarch of Alexander. The theology of this conflict was over whether Christ had two natures: Cryil as part of the Monophysites emphasising Christs divine nature, whilst Nestorious arguing that Christ was human. Nestoriius argued for the diminishing of the doctorine of Theotokos, "Mary, the mother of god".

This was during the reign of Theodosius II (402-450). The politics of the controversy surrounds his older sister Pulcheria who officially ruled from 450-453 but was also involved in Theodosius' reign. Pulcheria took a vow of virginity, and so the theological conflict over Mary's status as virgin mother of Christ was linked to her status as a Virgin Empress.

Nestorious led a smear campaign against Pulcheria implying she enjoyed "illicit sexual relations with at least seven lovers", would not "accede to her demand that she be remembered as the bride of Christ", "he effaced her imge which had been removed from the alter" and he refused her robe as an alter cover.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulcheria

Long story short, Pulcheria used her influence to settle the schism in her favour and devoted the last three years of her life and her reign to the theotokos, establishing three churches to the blessed Virgin Mary.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

 

[loverofhumanity]

The golden rule existed long before Christianity or Jesus (if he really existed). Humans (most of us) are wired for empathy and a sense of fairness. It is also just common sense that if we want to live in a safe and prosperous society we need to treat each other with respect and compassion. You don't need ancient mythology and superstition for people to love one another, we're wired for that too. The only thing your religion provides is a false sense of security that some invisible super entity is looking out for you. Unless theists can provide some actual, undisputable evidence to back their claims I see no reason to entertain them. If you don't seriously entertain the existence of leprechauns and unicorns, why do you think any unbeliever would entertain your specific unproven supernatural beliefs?

The thing I tried to show is that even the greatest philosophers acknowledge God.

God is not a material object but a spiritual reality. We can only know God exists through our mind and perceptions but cannot know of Him through the senses.

Please define what you would consider to be proof there is a God. We know gravity exists or we call it that by its 'signs' otherwise one can deny gravity exists until you keep dropping something from a height. We know God exists by His 'signs' but otherwise we don't know of Him.

 

[JustWondering]

The thing I tried to show is that even the greatest philosophers acknowledge God.

Hippocrates is best known for being the father of medicine, as a philosopher, here is a quote from him.

“People think that epilepsy is divine simply because they don't have any idea what causes epilepsy. But I believe that someday we will understand what causes epilepsy, and at that moment, we will cease to believe that it's divine. And so it is with everything in the universe”
― Hippocrates

Doesn't sound like Hippocrates was much into spiritualism does it?

As for Socrates and Plato who lived hundreds of years before Christ was (supposedly) born, they worshipped the greek gods. They never worshipped a monotheistic deity, or any deity that resembled yours. Saying they endorsed and supported your specific religious beliefs is ignorant or worse purposely misleading.

God is not a material object but a spiritual reality. We can only know God exists through our mind and perceptions but cannot know of Him through the senses.

Your god only exists in your mind, just like every other persons god/s (exist in their minds), because it is your imagination. I already know that.

Please define what you would consider to be proof there is a God. We know gravity exists or we call it that by its 'signs' otherwise one can deny gravity exists until you keep dropping something from a height. We know God exists by His 'signs' but otherwise we don't know of Him.

Physical evidence would be nice. But why is the existence of a god so important? I think its important to some people so they have an "ultimate authority" to legitimize their beliefs.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The difference between Jesus Christ and others is simple to believers but mind blowing to unbelievers. Jesus wants his children to KNOW him first, then know his word. You can read that bible until you are blue in the face and never understand it. Its only when you have a relationship with the almighty, He will give you understanding of His word.

So how can anyone want to know him by reading the Bible if the Bible only makes sense to those who already believe?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No dizziness is for atheist, agnostics, and others that hard confused about what they don't know or know or both....lol. The only thing you people know for sure is that you don't know....Now that's ignorant.

There's an old story called "The Twelve Dancing Princesses," in which one of the princesses falls ill and tells her father the King that if she can have the moon, she will be well again. The story tells how she believes the moon is no bigger than her thumbnail, since when she holds her thumb up and looks through it at the moon, her nail covers it completely. So the King's wizards make her a metal image of the moon, and give it to her. But the king was terrified when the moon came up the next night -- she'd know it wasn't real. No problem! As the princess herself reasoned, when she cuts her thumbnail, it grows back, so when the moon was plucked from the sky and put on a chain for her -- why of course it grew back.

The princess was very happy and content.

And she was something else, too -- she was completely and utterly wrong! Beliefs are often like that, I'm afraid.

At the very least, when I admit that I do not know something, yes, I might be ignorant of that specific thing, but I am intellectually honest. But when I claim to know something that is in fact absolutely false, then I am truly ignorant.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There are many different translations but most of them are in harmony. The stories usually match and there are also other sources apart from the Bible which basically agree.

I'm curious. What other sources?

 

[g2perk]

So how can anyone want to know him by reading the Bible if the Bible only makes sense to those who already believe?

Good question. God looks at your INTENTIONS. If you are reading to get to know Him then He will give you his wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to make sense of the bible.

 

[g2perk]

There's an old story called "The Twelve Dancing Princesses," in which one of the princesses falls ill and tells her father the King that if she can have the moon, she will be well again. The story tells how she believes the moon is no bigger than her thumbnail, since when she holds her thumb up and looks through it at the moon, her nail covers it completely. So the King's wizards make her a metal image of the moon, and give it to her. But the king was terrified when the moon came up the next night -- she'd know it wasn't real. No problem! As the princess herself reasoned, when she cuts her thumbnail, it grows back, so when the moon was plucked from the sky and put on a chain for her -- why of course it grew back.

The princess was very happy and content.

And she was something else, too -- she was completely and utterly wrong! Beliefs are often like that, I'm afraid.

At the very least, when I admit that I do not know something, yes, I might be ignorant of that specific thing, but I am intellectually honest. But when I claim to know something that is in fact absolutely false, then I am truly ignorant.

Yes I agree with your logic. And I was the same way, except I was catholic in the beginning so I knew of God but that was it. When I came to a point in my life where it was either change or else I choose LOOK for God. I started reading the bible and did not understand one sentence, but I decided to give it 100% of my attention and just read one ch. For 1 month. I prayed for wisdom and to know this bible. On the last week of the reading God gave me not only understanding but Revelation. Meaning I understood the word so well I SAW IT HAPPEN IN FRONT OF MY EYES. He is Amazing. Remember He knows our HEARTS. He says He will give us the joys of your heart. He kept His promise to me.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's the immersion factor that makes a compilation like the Bible come to life in one's mind followed by conviction.

 

[g2perk]

It's the immersion factor that makes a compilation like the Bible come to life in one's mind followed by conviction.

You just came up with that?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm curious. What other sources?

The Baha'i Faith confirms the existence of Jesus too and is an independent world religion and is not a sect of Christianity or Islam.

There are many Baha'i Writings about Christ and His Life.

But the main proof is Baha'u'llah. We believe Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God Who was All Knowing and His Knowledge is Infallible and He confirmed without a doubt that Jesus existed. If an infallible All Knowing Source of knowledge tells me something, I am in no need of further proofs and would be inclined to agree with it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

According to Gospel

Jesus was well known in the vicinity of Jerusalem in the first decades of the CE. He had grown up in nearby Nazareth. He had preached to large crowds. He had been to parties with rich folks. He had healed desperately ill people, even after they died. Then He made a big altercation in the Temple. By the week of the Passion of Christ, many if not most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem knew about Him. Many knew Him by face. He had lots of followers, including The Twelve.

Then He did something that got Him the ire of the local Jewish authorities. Likely the big deal in the Temple, but who knows. They hired one of His own to turn Him in. They turned Him over to Pilate. Apparently the evidence was weak, Pilate tried to foist the problem off onto Herod. Herod wasn't buying it, so Pilate summarily ordered Jesus to be tortured and crucified, the way Jewish terrorists/ freedom fighters generally were at the time. He was scourged to within an inch of His life. Then dragged naked through the streets of Jerusalem on the busiest day of the year(last shopping day before Passover) , carrying His own execution device, then nailed to the Cross to die in front of God and everybody. Then a Roman stabbed Him with a spear.
There is also mention of a solar event and an earthquake strong enough to damage the Temple. But not all the gospel writers remember that.

If the story had ended there(as it did in the original version of the oldest gospel, Mark), nobody would remember. Jesus would be just another troublesome Jew executed by the Romans before they leveled the Temple, and kicked the Jews out of Judea. It happened often.

But the story goes on. Jesus reappeared a few days later. Better than new, only a few scars as proof that He actually was the one crucified last Friday. Thomas checked it out for himself.
Given the facts, the place and time, and human nature, there are a few things a rational observer would expect.
The first would be crowds. A bunch of people saw that Jesus guy dragged through the streets to His death. Then they spent the next couple of days eating and hanging out with family, as people do on holidays. So lots of people, regardless of how they viewed Jesus, knew about the events of Friday. Jesus, Alive!, would be a huge big deal. A secret like that cannot be kept. People would care, even if they didn't believe in the Trinity. And Jesus was around for almost 40 more days. Then He Ascended to Heaven. The crowds would be wild.
People would hang on His every Word. They would want to know everything possible about His prior life and lineage and teachings and Everything. The spot He was born, His girlfriends, the spot from which He ascended. .... People would have wanted to know everything. And would have done anything to please Him. Throw themselves against the Romans in His Name. Erect statues and monuments, take in His Holy Mother, follow The Apostles around insufferably, pass stories about seeing Jesus's own sandal once with my own eyes to the grandkids...

But none of that happened. Nothing. It is impossible to find a credible reference to Jesus's existence before the Jewish diaspora. The Romans didn't notice. The Jewish authorities didn't notice.
Hardly anyone remembered anything until Paul came along. By then, nobody even remembered where Jesus ascended. A few decades after that, people started writing things down. But the writings were vague, not terribly consistent, and extremely incomplete. The earliest ones were pretty barebones, later ones had lots more supernatural details. But there is nothing like accounts of Jesus and His story anything like contemporary with Jesus.
Nothing.
And here is the biggest gap of all. What did The Risen Lord teach, do, or say during the 40 Days? Did everyone just forget? Didn't they care? It is like Jesus went on vacation during the most momentous time He was on earth! He could have explained Trinitarianism. Produced a code of Christian behavior that would exclude the Crusades, EuroChristian colonialism, and slavery in the Americas.(just to name a few)
But none of that happened. Absolutely nothing of interest is recorded as happening during The Risen Christ's 40 days with us fallible humans.

The remarkable lack of historical evidence, when it should exist in piles, is why I doubt that the character in the New Testament is more than a legend created later, for the purposes of humans. Nothing to do with God.
Tom

Keep in mind, who did he deal with, mostly? The elite of society, or the poor and distressed? No one kept much track of them!

Further, if you were a reporter and heard a claim of someone being resurrected, or a withered hand restored, would you print it? Or think it was made up?

And many times, especially at the end of his life, the accounts state that he refused to perform any signs, signs that would definitely get him noticed!

Plus, his ministry only lasted 3 1/2 years, in an area far away from important population centers of the time!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hippocrates is best known for being the father of medicine, as a philosopher, here is a quote from him.

“People think that epilepsy is divine simply because they don't have any idea what causes epilepsy. But I believe that someday we will understand what causes epilepsy, and at that moment, we will cease to believe that it's divine. And so it is with everything in the universe”
― Hippocrates

Doesn't sound like Hippocrates was much into spiritualism does it?

As for Socrates and Plato who lived hundreds of years before Christ was (supposedly) born, they worshipped the greek gods. They never worshipped a monotheistic deity, or any deity that resembled yours. Saying they endorsed and supported your specific religious beliefs is ignorant or worse purposely misleading.



Your god only exists in your mind, just like every other persons god/s (exist in their minds), because it is your imagination. I already know that.



Physical evidence would be nice. But why is the existence of a god so important? I think its important to some people so they have an "ultimate authority" to legitimize their beliefs.

The acknowledgement of the existence of God is crucial to human survival, progress and advancement on this planet! Why? The crucial thing is we accept the guidance God sent to us through His Educators and Teachers.

The world, at any one time, without guidance from God falls into a state of chaos and confusion.

Our way so far has been two world wars with hundreds of millions killed including a holocaust, Vietnam, Korea, the Cambodian killing fields, the Tutsi war over one million killed and violence and drug addiction rampant, racism and immorality and child sexual molestation increasing and the list is endless of this living hell materialism and consumerism have created.

Baha'u'llah has offered humanity a way out of this mess.

At least let's give Baha'u'llah a fair hearing before condemning Him and God as we may be writing our own future by doing so. There MAY be some truth in what He says.

But if we say God doesn't exist so the danger there is we also ignore God's guidance which, if you study Bahaullah's Words are exactly what our age needs. At least give Him a fair go.

 

[sunray]

Hi Tom,
I've read what you say, but haven't read the 11 pages of reply. However.
It seems to me you want proof so here it is:
The facts in the bible about Jesus are great, however it's not the facts or the reason you need most it's simply to believe unconditionally in God and Jesus; or some higher intelligence.
You will never be 100% certain until you've had some spiritual results, until then you have to have faith.
I recieved a spiritual message or spiritual inspiration when I was 9 years old, I also watched on TV, 'Moses and the Miracles', and said to myself "I'll believe even if they put me in prison for it", there certainly didn't seem any reason to live except spiritually. I wanted the best for myself and this world spiritually.
I was inspired to belive I was the Son of Man, the new Christ but kept it secret.
Some Pastors have read my story and agree that each one of us has the possiblilty of becoming the New Chrst in our own way, with God as a guide that is. Rather like the Buddhists can become the new Buddha.
Believe in God or something Higher than human and you may well become Universal in religion and believe in all the Prophets and Saints, and be one with them, 'unique yourself'. Just have faith and 'always look on the Bright side of life', like the 'Monty Phythons' crew sang.

It's difficult to simply belive and have faith if you are too intellectual, it's easy if you decide to be spiritual. It's up to you, all the information you need will come to you if you have faith; sometimes that means giving up even faith, postponing it for a while.
Well I don't want to give you all the Book I wrote to read with all the proofs I've found; I'm sure you can find your own proofs.
I had the highest belief and was crushed like a miller crushes grain, but I knew It would take time so I resolved to believe for forty years, then if I didn't have Absolute proof, I could give up with the spiritual stuff.
You may find the truth a bit too much but after 40 years a real flaming hot spiritual Sun, the size of a volleyball, rose out of the top of my head. The spiritual flames were healing I felt all my problems disolve, it was completely uplifting, and such a relief after 40 years of care, understanding, hope , patience, humility and struggle. Hard to believe, it simply takes time; give yourself 40 minutes of absolute faith, and simply follow your guide for 40 years. It's up to you!
Good luck
Sunray

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The acknowledgement of the existence of God is crucial to human survival, progress and advancement on this planet! Why? The crucial thing is we accept the guidance God sent to us through His Educators and Teachers.

Homo sapiens have survived without belief in your god since we evolved roughly 200,000 years ago. It's only in the last 3-4 thousand years that belief in the One God has emerged and we haven't benefited much from it.

Our way so far has been two world wars with hundreds of millions killed including a holocaust, Vietnam, Korea, the Cambodian killing fields, the Tutsi war over one million killed and violence and drug addiction rampant, racism and immorality and child sexual molestation increasing and the list is endless of this living hell materialism and consumerism have created.

All of these atrocities have occurred while belief in the One God has been widespread. It has not helped - most of these were perpetrated by believers in the One God. You're indulging in a utopian view of what the world would be like if everyone believed as you do. From the way Bahaullah's teachings come across, he kind of reminds me of this guy:

 

[oldbadger]

...................................
God is not a material object but a spiritual reality.
We can only know God exists through our mind and perceptions but cannot know of Him through the senses.
......................................... We know God exists by His 'signs' but otherwise we don't know of Him.

But that is your perception......
I perceive God in everything around..........

And Jesus, historical Jesus, probably existed, only not by that name. His name was probably Yeshua BarYosef.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

I think Jesus was a real preacher in 1st century Judea whose story was embellished and likely syncretized with other religious figures of the time. Messianic movements were huge at the time, and you see other proposed miracle workers attested such as Simon Magus. Mystery religions and the deification of mortals were also huge among late classical pagans, with the cults (in the neutral Latin sense) of Mithras and Antinous being major phenomena. Early Christianity (and the prevalence of messianic and apocalyptic movements more broadly) can be viewed in a sense as an Abrahamic response to that cultural climate.

 

[oldbadger]

Your god only exists in your mind, just like every other persons god/s (exist in their minds), because it is your imagination. I already know that.

How about....... Your denial of God exists in your mind, just like every other atheist's denial, because it is your (and their) mindset. I already know that.
See? a no-score draw.

Physical evidence would be nice.

Fair enough. Let's do it. Out you go and (on a dark clear night) look at all those stats and Galaxies. What is the reason for their existence? Since you don't have any more clues than anyone else, let's call 'the reason' 'GOD'?

But why is the existence of a god so important? I think its important to some people so they have an "ultimate authority" to legitimize their beliefs.

No authority....... The authority is vested in Mother Nature, and you can fear her as much as any other creature.

 

[oldbadger]

If an infallible All Knowing Source of knowledge tells me something, I am in no need of further proofs and would be inclined to agree with it.

Nonsense.......
Each one of us should be focused upon the 'Individual Investigation of Truth'.
Jesus existed (as Yeshua BarYosef) because there are strong reports of his life, vocation and various incidents, written by both supporters and enemies, reasonably soon after his life. And they tend to give some support to each other.