No RELIGION = No MORALS?

[Atheologian]

The divided kingdom of Israel came to an end with its capture by the Assyrians. God is said to have made it happen because they worshipped alien gods, made burnt offerings of sons and daughters and practiced occultism.
16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
18Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight; none was left but the tribe of Judah only. (2 Kgs. 17:16-18)
Give this a second thought. In order to punish his chosen people, he showed favor towards the heathen Assyrians. By this logic, it is better not to believe in God. This way he won't harm you. He might even reward you.

There ya go, here's a case where it ****** God off, but what did he do? He took favor on a rival group of heathens, that also sacrificed children. Later the Assyrians are killed.

 

[Atheologian]

33And Ahab made an Asherah. Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel who were before him.
34In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun. (1 Kgs. 16:33-34)

 

[Atheologian]

It depends which chapter of the bible you are reading, whether child sacrifice is acceptable or not, and particularly for what reason.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Like what? What could possibly justify wiping out an entire race, entire races, of people?

Blashpemy? Working on the Sabbath? Worshiping fasle idols?

And what of the exploitation of women, the slaves promised to abraham, and again to moses?

Where are the morals in all of this brutality and opression?

Samson's father-in-law gave Samson's wife away to a friend, since he thought Samson "hated" her. He suggests that Samson take his younger daughter instead, saying the younger one's prettier anyway. 15:2

What could justify wiping out peoples would be as Deut (18:10) says to make one's son or daughter pass through the fire.

Slaves often became slaves because they fell on hard times. Slavery could only last for 7 years.

Samson's father was an imperfect person. God did not tell his father to do what he did. Chapter 15 is relating what happened.

The Israelites did a lot of things that were bad in God's eyes. That did not mean God approved.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Once again, by who's standards. God's? What you are saying is that the Israelites were fine with slavery and murder and rape and incest, but for God's sake, don't worship idols or be gay. What a merciful God...

Were does it say God is fine with murder, rape, incest? Slavery was regulated.
There was no welfare system, and if a person fell on hard times they could spend 7 years recovering from their dire circumstances.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It depends which chapter of the bible you are reading, whether child sacrifice is acceptable or not, and particularly for what reason.

Where does it say God approved of child sacrifice?

Didn't God prescribe the death penalty for such a crime?
2nd Kings 17:17,18; Ezekiel 23:4, 36-39; Lev 20:2-5.

Jeremiah (7:31; 19:4,5; 32:35) wrote that such a thing did not enter into God's heart.

 

[Nothing]

If morality is what we use to determine what is right and wrong then who is responsible for determining what is moral? All religions have their own moral codes which they claim are given them by their God/Founder/Messiah. At best, we mortals have screwed up through our finite limitations Their Divine Morals just a little bit. At worst..., well, explore the darkness of your imagination, you'll think of something. The vast majority of us put more faith in our mortality then in our divinity and therefore lack the spiritual maturity to define morals. Our morality is subjective and based entirely on our perception of the physical world.
I say disregard all morality ( yours or someone else's ) and just be at peace

 

[richardlowellt]

What is there to ignore? God destroyed people who's destruction was warranted. As I have said in other threads, if God is freely sustaining life, then He holds the right to, at any time, cease that sustenance for any or no reason

And that is why this god is a demon god, no different than any other tyrant that has murdered his people, that he or it has special warrant to commit murder because he created these murdered people, is cruelty at it's most horrid. I created my children, so I have every right to end their lives for ANY or NO reason, that would get me convicted in any court, and so this demon god is guilty of the most horrid crimes.




.

Just as if I were to provide you with free electricity from my power company, and then decide to stop giving you that electricity.

You can't be serious, but I can see that you certainly are, it's a stupid example at best, and completely mind searing at worst.

 

[richardlowellt]

This guy is exactly the reason religion is dangerous.

So what a bunch of people died, God did it.

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to people that use their head?

This is the sort of thing we've been fighting to get away from for centuries. The notion that God should be able to kill you on a whim. The idea that the Church can "put you to the question". Your God is cruel, sadistic, malicious and narcisistic.

Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience. "religion poisons everything" Christopher Hitchens.

 

[Atheologian]

Where does it say God approved of child sacrifice?

Didn't God prescribe the death penalty for such a crime?
2nd Kings 17:17,18; Ezekiel 23:4, 36-39; Lev 20:2-5.

Jeremiah (7:31; 19:4,5; 32:35) wrote that such a thing did not enter into God's heart.

I have already listed multiple instances of God approving child sacrifices. Just because you ignored them, doesn't mean I'm going to post them all over again.

And God prescribing the death penalty for such a crime only depends on what chapter you read. It isn't as if the chapters of the Bible corelate in any way.

 

[Atheologian]

If someone kidnaps a man and sells him, that man doing the stealing is to be executed. So how does God approve of kidnapping if the kidnapper is put to death?

21:20 yes if a slave died because of striking him the master was punished.- (Lev 24:17; Numbers 35:16-18) Most masters would not want to kill a valuable slave. If a slave did not die at the time of the strike it could Not be proven the intent was murder.

A slave was to be set free for mistreatment (Exodus 21:26,27) Also, slaves did Not work on the Sabbath- ( Ex 20:10; Deut 5:14.) Slaves were always freed after 7 years of service or earlier if someone could pay the debt for them.

Way to justify slavery. Strange how stealing another man's possessions, like his ox, his slave or his WIFE is punishable by death, but beating your WIFE to DEATH is not. Neither is killing her unborn child.

 

[Atheologian]

Why would anyone that believes in the Old Testament, or the New Testament for that matter, try to argue that the Bible is full of good messages? Maybe I'll start a new topic, and get a better understanding of why you ignore all the massacres and injustices just to pick and prod and find the few bits that have some relevance to modern soceity and a hint of decency. Am I out of line for suggesting that genocide, slavery and the oppression of women is wrong?

I apologize if I overwhelmed you PureX, we can go back and look at each passage individually, and tally up the score, but I'll bet you'd make it to Exodus, look at the list, and start accusing me of "skewing" and "spinning" and "protecting my ego". Who is protecting their ego here, Purex? Who felt compelled, in this case, to inform us of his age and experience in these matters, dealing with fudamental literalists and other unsavory atheist types? Who needed to qualify themselves in order to save face? >)

 

[Atheologian]

Okay, so back to the topic. We aren't getting anywhere with the morality of the Bible. Let's assume Christianity, Judaism and Islam NEVER existed. There are plenty of other religions, in which people worship a god or gods totally seperate and distinct from Yahweh, the desert god. Presume they have morals too, that's not so far fetched, right? What if their religion was never formed, but the knowledge of the modern world was available to them. Would they live about the same way, or would their standards change abuptly?

 

[Atheologian]

We got way off base. I have certain hang ups about recognizing the Bible as a source or morals, and I can't avoid that, but that's not the issue. Would the absense of religion have negative effects on society as a whole, is an even better way to pose the question.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Religion: Observe, Hypothesize
Science: Observe, Hypothesize, Experiment, Reproduce, Theorize

In this manner it is clear to see how these two methodologies align. It seems to me that men of wisdom in the deep past could have seen past the limit of religion, using conceptualization and careful study; and presented a primitive form of theory to the local authority. Assignment of divine mandate to complex concepts makes too much sense for me to think morality would have been forwarded without religion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Way to justify slavery. Strange how stealing another man's possessions, like his ox, his slave or his WIFE is punishable by death, but beating your WIFE to DEATH is not. Neither is killing her unborn child.

Please note Exodus (21:23) because if the unborn is killed the punishment was life for life. Life for life would mean capital punishment.

 

[Atheologian]

Please note Exodus (21:23) because if the unborn is killed the punishment was life for life. Life for life would mean capital punishment.

I'll give you that, but it depends on what chapter you read.

 

[Atheologian]

Religion: Observe, Hypothesize
Science: Observe, Hypothesize, Experiment, Reproduce, Theorize

In this manner it is clear to see how these two methodologies align. It seems to me that men of wisdom in the deep past could have seen past the limit of religion, using conceptualization and careful study; and presented a primitive form of theory to the local authority. Assignment of divine mandate to complex concepts makes too much sense for me to think morality would have been forwarded without religion.

So could we not say that science works "better" since it is more thorough and exact? By better I only mean more reliable as a source of truth.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Religious morality...
Question?
Is something moral or immoral because God says so?
Or..
Does God say something is moral or immoral because God recognizes it as so?

 

[Tiapan]

Less religion more justice

End of story

Reality rules over fantasy and dogma.

It also gives us a basis to deal with each other as humans instead of cosmic goats

Cheers