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No Self-Hating Name as "Indigenous Persons Day" - Keep Columbus Day

What is the proper name for the second Monday in October?


  • Total voters
    30

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
It's rather worse when you consider that gays get a whole month......

It seems pretty damn insensitive by that measure to give the indigenous people 1 day.
"Celebrate diversity and use law-related resources to explore the nation's legal and cultural heritage.

African American History Month — February
Women's History Month — March
Asian Pacific American Heritage Month — May
LGBTQ Pride Month — June
Hispanic Heritage Month — September-October
Native American Heritage Month — November"

 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
"Celebrate diversity and use law-related resources to explore the nation's legal and cultural heritage.

African American History Month — February
Women's History Month — March
Asian Pacific American Heritage Month — May
LGBTQ Pride Month — June
Hispanic Heritage Month — September-October
Native American Heritage Month — November"

I'm not really interested in any of it, as I believe it divides people and makes people see certain folks as 'other', even if it's in a good way.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I'm not really interested in any of it, as I believe it divides people and makes people see certain folks as 'other', even if it's in a good way.

That's a problem with the people and not the celebration though imo. We will always see some faction or another of people as other, no universal fix for that tribal nature. Best to put people into categories that at least minimize conflict. It's about balance. You're extreme version of "not being interested in any of it" is how we got JWs "all holidays are bad, demonic, etc".
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
That's a problem with the people and not the celebration though imo. We will always see some faction or another of people as other, no universal fix for that tribal nature. Best to put people into categories that at least minimize conflict. It's about balance. You're extreme version of "not being interested in any of it" is how we got JWs "all holidays are bad, demonic, etc".
Well, it's deeper than that.

I don't believe in the self, stable identity etc. at all, so I believe the idea of representation and so on is false from the start. I don't really believe in the individual. So anything to do with identity politics strikes me as philosophically wrong.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I'm not really interested in any of it, as I believe it divides people and makes people see certain folks as 'other', even if it's in a good way.

This makes me wonder if you have children and, if so, whether, in the course of raising them, you were able to recognize each child's unique qualities.

"Other" has a well deserved connotation, and I have used the term here at RF more than once. But none of this "makes" me see culture and cohorts as "the other," nor does it prevent me from acknowledging and celebrate the contributions of each.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
This makes me wonder if you have children and, if so, whether, in the course of raising them, you were able to recognize each child's unique qualities.

"Other" has a well deserved connotation, and I have used the term here at RF more than once. But none of this "makes" me see culture and cohorts as "the other," nor does it prevent me from acknowledging and celebrate the contributions of each.
Well, I'm a woman, I'm bisexual, I'm a Pagan etc. etc. but I don't feel the need for months to celebrate or recognise any of this, because I don't need anyone to justify me. I don't need justification to be a woman or whatever else. I just am. I've never even thought about it. It's no big deal. These things don't define me.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Well, it's deeper than that.

I don't believe in the self, stable identity etc. at all, so I believe the idea of representation and so on is false from the start. I don't really believe in the individual. So anything to do with identity politics strikes me as philosophically wrong.

Ah ok. I think it as a mix of the two. Both collectivism (unity) and individuality (separation).

I see it as being about balancing the two forces. Too far either way leads to issues such as Totalitarian dictatorships, or pure Anarchy.

We need to balance it, as I am One with Me (an individual), and I and the Universe/Gods are One, a collective whole.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Well, I'm a woman, I'm bisexual, I'm a Pagan etc. etc. but I don't feel the need for months to celebrate or recognise any of this, because I don't need anyone to justify me. I don't need justification to be a woman or whatever else. I just am. I've never even thought about it. It's no big deal. These things don't define me.
Why did you shift the discussion to what you feel you need or don't need?

What I find interesting here is that, under the guise of not wanting to disparage people as "the other" you imply that things like "Indigenous Persons Day" as nothing more than a reflection of "their" need to justify themselves.

Talk about being dismissive -- especially given that every day here at RF is National @Rival Day. ;)
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
It's celebrating Europeans coming to a new world for a better life. Indigenous peoples day doesn't even make sense
It was not Europeans coming to the new world for a better life! It was a man trying to increase is wealth and the wealth of a colonizing country to make their lives better in Europe. They then exploited the indigenous people for their gain. That is very different than immigrants coming to America for a better life.

This day reminds me that no one gave a celebration shout out on October 1st. That is national Raccoon day. I must remember next year to put out a post.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Why did you shift the discussion to what you feel you need or don't need?

What I find interesting here is that, under the guise of not wanting to disparage people as "the other" you imply that things like "Indigenous Persons Day" as nothing more than a reflection of "their" need to justify themselves.

Talk about being dismissive -- especially given that every day here at RF is National @Rival Day. ;)
I'm a bit drunk to care, to be honest, right now.

It others people by saying they're not just Americans, British, or whatever, they're x American, x British. Black American, indigenous American, gay American...

As far as people who don't live there are concerned, they're all just Americans. I just don't care about identity nonsense. I'm not 'white British', I'm British, my friend isn't 'black British', she's British. That stops separating us, it brings us culturally together.

But by and large, as I said to Hammer, I do not believe in identity or the self. We respond to situations, action and reaction, and have no stable personality or self. Every day is not Rival day because there's not really a Rival. Identifying with such characteristics as race, sexuality, sex, I think is absurd. We are all just souls inside bodies as a vehicle we use for getting around the material world, whatever body it happens to be is irrelevant. The fact that some people obsess over these things speaks to me of a deep seated insecurity over them and a need for others to recognise them. I recognise them as people.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Last Sunday, I was talking to a few of my friends, and mentioned stuff that happened over a previous Columbus Day Weekend. Someone "corrected" me, saying it is "Indigenous Persons Day." I snapped at him, saying, "I am sick and tired of being told we're bad people, that we don't belong here." I feel that there have been many movement of peoples around the earth, and the primitive people almost always lose the argument.

I also feel that smallpox, diphtheria and typhoid, originally spread by de Soto's horses left being, deserve a large share of the blame. The book 1491: The Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann posits that horses and rats were that vector and suggests that much of North America's Native American population was reduced by 90% to 98% by the spread of those diseases. In other words the migrant European population found far fewer Native Americans than had existed half a century before. If the native population was dense enough to have the famous major Aztec, Mayan and Inca cities and in the Midwest cities such as Cahokia, there was enough population to support transmission of highly contagious diseases.

It's a given that Africa and Asia largely held European invaders at bay; the Americas' and Australia's did not. European presence and penetration in Africa and Asia, on the same landmass, was quite minor, like likely because the population was dense and its leadership relatively intact. Smallpox, diphtheria and typhoid raced through the native populations in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand. In addition to the numbers killed, their leadership was decapitated, resulting in disorganization. I would like the shamers of relatively advanced Europeans to at least be honest.

We have the right to be here, and we are imperfect, but good. The Aztecs and Mayas were nothing to write home about.
There are separate issues at play here, so I voted 'Other'.

Putting aside issues of indigenous displacement and treatment (for a moment), it's worth ensuring you look at this with a historically broad lens, and not just at 'whether or not Columbus was responsible for genocide'.

1. The day was formally instituted in 1892, 400 years after the fact. There was no nationally recognised Columbus Day (originally Discovery day) before that.
2. It's originator was Benjamin Harrison, and it's worth noting pretty clear political reasons for it's inception. The Catholic community in the US was both somewhat marginilized and organised. They were an influential 'fringe' group that could impact elections if effectively rallied.
3. Columbus never set foot in North America. Ever.

So, yeah. Not really a supporter of Columbus Day, but I get that people aren't actually celebrating what happened to indigenous populations.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
It was not Europeans coming to the new world for a better life! It was a man trying to increase is wealth and the wealth of a colonizing country to make their lives better in Europe. They then exploited the indigenous people for their gain. That is very different than immigrants coming to America for a better life.

This day reminds me that no one gave a celebration shout out on October 1st. That is national Raccoon day. I must remember next year to put out a post.
Eh settlers they were though and after and that’s why we celebrate it
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Last Sunday, I was talking to a few of my friends, and mentioned stuff that happened over a previous Columbus Day Weekend. Someone "corrected" me, saying it is "Indigenous Persons Day." I snapped at him, saying, "I am sick and tired of being told we're bad people, that we don't belong here." I feel that there have been many movement of peoples around the earth, and the primitive people almost always lose the argument.

I also feel that smallpox, diphtheria and typhoid, originally spread by de Soto's horses left being, deserve a large share of the blame. The book 1491: The Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann posits that horses and rats were that vector and suggests that much of North America's Native American population was reduced by 90% to 98% by the spread of those diseases. In other words the migrant European population found far fewer Native Americans than had existed half a century before. If the native population was dense enough to have the famous major Aztec, Mayan and Inca cities and in the Midwest cities such as Cahokia, there was enough population to support transmission of highly contagious diseases.

It's a given that Africa and Asia largely held European invaders at bay; the Americas' and Australia's did not. European presence and penetration in Africa and Asia, on the same landmass, was quite minor, like likely because the population was dense and its leadership relatively intact. Smallpox, diphtheria and typhoid raced through the native populations in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand. In addition to the numbers killed, their leadership was decapitated, resulting in disorganization. I would like the shamers of relatively advanced Europeans to at least be honest.

We have the right to be here, and we are imperfect, but good. The Aztecs and Mayas were nothing to write home about.
The day itself should be scrapped. UK does not celebrate "Norman Conquest Day" even though Norman culture permeates much of England.
 

mangalavara

नमस्कार
Premium Member
I'm confused how an Italian explorer from five centuries ago became "we" today, nor how acknowledging Columbus' misdeeds somehow make "us" bad.

*nods*

It seems that lots of people in the US see that man as an embodiment of Europeans. To the best of my knowledge, the Europeans of his day did not think of themselves as one people. How then could he be such an embodiment?

Something else to consider is that Columbus was a Catholic way before Vatican II ever occurred. If he were to come back to life and learn about the existence of white Evangelicals, he would very likely see them as heretics and/or non-Christians regardless of where their ancestors lived. How could they identify with him then?

In my case, I categorize people by ethnicity and religion. I’m not an Italian, so I don’t identify with Columbus. I’m not a Catholic (or any type of Christian), so I don’t identify with him. In my thinking, anybody who turns Columbus into ‘we’ must be Italian and/or Catholic. Unfortunately, lots of white Americans like to pretend that all Europeans are one people (and that they are somehow Europeans too), and lots of them like to pretend that all institutional Christians are one. In reality, none of that is how things really are.
 
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