No Self-Hating Name as "Indigenous Persons Day" - Keep Columbus Day

[LuisDantas]

OK, let's roll with it. Should we be commemorating the ceaseless warfare among the "Indigenous Peoples" that preceded European colonization, see War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley. Or the Mayan custom of throwing their sacrificial targets down cenotes (water holes), see Ancient Maya sacrificed boys not virgin girls: study - Reuters. The pre-Columbian Americas were not Edenic.

So, you are proposing a white man saviour perspective?

I don't think I can spare much sympathy for it. Sorry.

 

[Orbit]

OK, let's roll with it. Should we be commemorating the ceaseless warfare among the "Indigenous Peoples" that preceded European colonization, see War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley. Or the Mayan custom of throwing their sacrificial targets down cenotes (water holes), see Ancient Maya sacrificed boys not virgin girls: study - Reuters. The pre-Columbian Americas were not Edenic.

False Equivalence: The Problem with Unreasonable Comparisons – Effectiviology

effectiviology.com

 

[jbg]

False Equivalence: The Problem with Unreasonable Comparisons – Effectiviology

effectiviology.com

So you found a blog with a name you think relates to this topic. Please explain in what way.

 

[Orbit]

So you found a blog with a name you think relates to this topic. Please explain in what way.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone incorrectly asserts that two or more things are equivalent, simply because they share some characteristics, despite the fact that there are also notable differences between them. For example, a false equivalence is saying that cats and dogs are the same animal, since they’re both mammals and have a tail.

False equivalences, which generally exaggerate similarities and ignore important differences, can be used to equate a wide range of things, including individuals, groups, actions, or arguments, either implicitly or explicitly. Accordingly, false equivalences are frequently used in debates on various topics, especially when it comes to suggesting that there is a moral equivalence between two or more things that are being equated

 

[jbg]

False equivalence is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone incorrectly asserts that two or more things are equivalent, simply because they share some characteristics, despite the fact that there are also notable differences between them. For example, a false equivalence is saying that cats and dogs are the same animal, since they’re both mammals and have a tail.

False equivalences, which generally exaggerate similarities and ignore important differences, can be used to equate a wide range of things, including individuals, groups, actions, or arguments, either implicitly or explicitly. Accordingly, false equivalences are frequently used in debates on various topics, especially when it comes to suggesting that there is a moral equivalence between two or more things that are being equated

Fine, you've copied and pasted a quote. How is my comparison false?

 

[Orbit]

Fine, you've copied and pasted a quote. How is my comparison false?

Do you really not know? Internecine warfare among Native tribes is not the same as the genocide of an entire continent of Native people.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

OK, let's roll with it. Should we be commemorating the ceaseless warfare among the "Indigenous Peoples" that preceded European colonization, see War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley. Or the Mayan custom of throwing their sacrificial targets down cenotes (water holes), see Ancient Maya sacrificed boys not virgin girls: study - Reuters. The pre-Columbian Americas were not Edenic.

Why not? We commemorate wars all the time -- Memorial Day, Armistice Day, Remembrance Day and others. Before Europeans came to the Americas, they were just about ceaseslessly at war themselves, over land, resources, ideologies, religions, or even sometimes trivialities. We still commemorate sacrifices, too -- every time a mass or Christian church service is held.

 

[Father Heathen]

Stripping the name acknowledges our "badness" for even being here.

Again, "our"? Unless you're an immortal or time traveling member of his crew, what did Columbus and his actions have to do with "us"? Also, where's "here"? Are you located in the Caribbean, Central America, or South America?

 

[1137]

We raped, murdered and conquered them through force and subversion while subsequently & underhandedly pushed them out of their traditional lands. Then continued, and still do, to break most of the governmental promises that were made to them like water and land rights. Then we forcibly took their children away, placed them in boarding schools and beat them for speaking their mother language. Then when they died from neglect, they just buried the kids in mass graves and didn't bother to tell the families.

I've met grandparents who were in these schools and are still traumatized from being in them.

All because we feel we have the right to "make everyone be like us".

The true barbarians are us in this instance.

So yes IPD is not a bad thing. Columbus can be taught in history, but he does not need a day of celebration. We don't have a Hitler day, we have a Holocaust Remembrance Day.

We? I never did any of this to anyone.

 

[Father Heathen]

A lot Italian-Americans apparently see Columbus day as a celebration of Italian heritage. So, I don't see why we couldn't have both: Indigenous People's Day to remember the harm done to the Indigenous folk of this land and Italian Heritage day for celebrating Italian-Americans. It can be two things.

People shouldn't take pride in shameful things.

 

[The Hammer]

We? I never did any of this to anyone.

I used the Royal "We", in reference to the past society many of us have historical ties to.

Not as a way of singling the current society, or any person.

I did mention a few modern ways our (US) govt does does still continue to neglect the indigenous and their rights, though.

 

[Father Heathen]

OK, let's roll with it. Should we be commemorating the ceaseless warfare among the "Indigenous Peoples" that preceded European colonization, see War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence H. Keeley. Or the Mayan custom of throwing their sacrificial targets down cenotes (water holes), see Ancient Maya sacrificed boys not virgin girls: study - Reuters. The pre-Columbian Americas were not Edenic.

No, but that isn't what Indigenous Peoples day commemorates. You wouldn't say that Veteran's Day commemorates the Mai Lai Massacre, would you?

 

[jbg]

Do you really not know? Internecine warfare among Native tribes is not the same as the genocide of an entire continent of Native people.

Put the smallpox virus on trial!

 

[Orbit]

Put the smallpox virus on trial!

Educate yourself: https://nativephilanthropy.candid.o...alping-and-raping-and-enslaving-native-women/

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I always saw it as an observation...a mark on the calendar of when the Americas were discovered by the Europeans.

Except that just isn't true. Europeans discovered the New World centuries before Columbus. It's a lie thats inexplicably taught in school still today.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

People shouldn't take pride in shameful things.

I agree in this context. I didn't mean that Italian-americans should celebrate Columbus out of pride, only that if they wish to celebrate an Italian Heritage day, it can be changed to reflect that.

Or, make it a day of celebration and reflection on in the anti-Italian history that prompted it to become a national holiday in the first place:

1891 New Orleans lynchings - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"As part of a wider effort to ease tensions with Italy and placate Italian Americans, President Benjamin Harrison declared the first nationwide celebration of Columbus Day in 1892, commemorating the 400th anniversary of the Italian explorer's landing in the New World."

As such, it would be a good reminder to America that we have a foundation written in cruelty and working to change that is important.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Except that just isn't true. Europeans discovered the New World centuries before Columbus. It's a lie thats inexplicably taught in school still today.

Yep. How is that relevant to the topic?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Put the smallpox virus on trial!

No that's not even close. Celtic tribes and Germanic tribes, for example, were often plagued with inner fighting. But it didn't lead to genocide. Their beliefs still lived and were wide spread enough the Romans eventually adopted the Celtic goddess Epona. But the Romans did commit genocide against the Celts by slaughtering Druids, an act that destroyed and slowly erased traditional Celtic beliefs amd now we know very little about it despite them being the dominate group in Europe at one point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yep. How is that relevant to the topic?

There's just no good reason for there to be a Columbus Day.

 

[George-ananda]

Let's do away with the holiday completely. Everything causes more controversy than good. We need to get less racially focused and not more focused.