• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Noahs Ark (How can anyone possibly believe the story)

gnostic

The Lost One
As a myth, the Genesis story about Noah's Ark is fine. Not an original nor unique, but it is well-suited for it's time, where they only rudimentary understanding of science and nature.

However when you look and dig deeper into the narrative you cam easily see everything about it defies the law of nature or law of physics.

It fine if you accept it literally that everything came about because "God did it", but that will only raise more questions than provide answers. it's every individual's rights but if anyone think that sneak the Genesis Flood as logical scientific or historical event, then they are going have to bear relentless questions, criticism, or rebuttal on the impossible.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You need not to go as far as China, to show break in culture.

understood

the big three go back to 6000 years ago with writing, egypt, sumerian and china all had writing.

Thing is we see agriculture in the levant going back 12,000 years.

I have a feeling "inchrist" doesnt have much of a education on the scienftific and historic side of the bible.


How can you be so sure that the same species of today existed 4000 years ago or that there wasn't enough time for them to develop?

because we have written records that go back that far and animal mummys that show there has been no change in species.

You just dont know how much information is out there from the last 10,000 years that all

you also dont understand the first thing about evolution and how long it takes for different species to evolve into new ones.


Look I hate to break it to you but "you" a homo sapien has a lineage going back 200,000 years, homo erectus lasted for a million years before his genes split off into a new species.

in the last 5,000 years i can guaratee you all the different races of people/homo sapien's had existed for a long time and the different races did not just evolve in the last 4000 years from hebrews in the levant.



I believe it is likely that before the flood there was one land mass which did not break up into continents until during and/or after the flood

Im sorry to burst your bubble bud but there is actual physical evidence of just how fast tektonik plates move, its about the same speed as your nails grow in the rapid movement areas.

how can you distrust science so much is beyond me. They dont just make this up as they go.


But it is possible fish with this ability could have been more common at that time.

theres no fossil evidence of this, really bud your just reaching at this point and its kind of pitifull

As far as I know the earliest written historical records go back between 4000-maybe 5000 years.

thats because you dont know. Your not educated enough in history, biblical history or science


never said that I think all science, geology, or anthropology is evil. Maybe some of the conclusions are mistaken

but who are you???? and what education do you really have??? to question some of the most educated brightest minds this planet has to offer??????


think about what your statement implies, your telling the most intellegent GROUP of people who have withstood peer review from people looking to put holes in the ideas. And then your telling them your making mistakes because I with no education in the field, do not like that it goes against my religious beliefs so it has to be wrong.







I can tell you with almost %100 certainty I know where noahs flood comes from. Lets give you a quick history lesson.

Where did noahs story originate? mesopotamia, thats where. Just so happens there is a Sumerian flood story that originates from this same place but much earlier then ancient hebrews.

Ancient hebrews bud only go back as a culture to 1250 BC, the oldest biblical text was first written around 1000BC. So lets get this straight, there were no hebrews at all before roughly 1250 BC

Now in 2900BC the Euphrates overflowed its banks after a 6 day thunderstorm on a already swollen river. It flooded bad. There was a man who could not get his livestock to higher ground so he loaded them on a barge and was swept out to sea. After a while his barge landed on shore by a hill [not mountain] and he burned a animal sacrifice to thank his deity of choice for letting him live.

The flood above is attested, that means its dated and not up for debate, nor does anyone contest it.

now if you actually read the bible you will understand noah has two storys of which in the bible contradict each other. one of the storys match this story very closely and is some places almost identical and word for word.

One problem Sumerians had 3 storys and existed for thousands of years before hebrews were ever a culture.

Now guess what,,,,,,,, semetic speaking people migrated from the sumerian culture with these fables to become hebrews at a later date.

semetic speaking people migrated from egypt bringing their fables as well, thats where the exodus comes in.

dont forget the nomadic tribes in th elevant as well that made up the hebrew culture.

now the Euphrates regional flood originates exactly where the bible says the flood happned imagine that.

No hebrews ever witnessed the flood because they were not a culture at that time.

despite what the bible states ancient hebrews do not go back 6000 years. hebrews as a culture go back 1250 BC

Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The name Israel first appears c. 1209 BCE, at the end of the Late Bronze Age and the very beginning of the period archaeologists and historians call Iron Age I, in an inscription of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah. The inscription is very brief and says simply: "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not". The hieroglyph accompanying the name "Israel" indicates that it refers to a people, most probably located in the highlands of Samaria.


Over the next two hundred years (the period of Iron Age I) the number of highland villages increased from 25 to over 300[16] and the settled population doubled to 40,000.[17] There is general agreement that the majority of the population living in these villages was of Canaanite origin.[16] By the 10th century BCE a rudimentary state had emerged in the north-central highlands,[18] and in the 9th century this became a kingdom



Theres allot you can learn if you open up your mind the real knowledge at hand
 
Last edited:

RitalinO.D.

Well-Known Member
"The key is to remember that the Flood didn't have to cover the present Earth, but it did have to cover the pre-Flood Earth..."

"Mt. Everest and the Himalayan range, along with the Alps, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Andes, and most of the world's other mountains are composed of ocean-bottom sediments, full of marine fossils laid down by the Flood. Mt. Everest itself has clam fossils at its summit. These rock layers cover an extensive area, including much of Asia. They give every indication of resulting from cataclysmic water processes. These are the kinds of deposits we would expect to result from the worldwide, world-destroying Flood of Noah's day."

"No, Noah's Flood didn't cover the Himalayas, it formed them! "

Did Noah's Flood Cover the Himalayan Mountains?

lol wow...
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
I used to be a Christian but after many years left the faith. A number of things were bugging me that could not be answered. I repeatedly questioned the whole Noah's ark story & never got sensible / satisfactory answers. Can someone on here that is religious & a believer in The Ark, please try to explain how:
1)How could all creatures from land & freshwater be contained on a boat . (currently 1.7000000 creatures on earth we know of & more discovered everyday)
2)How could there possibly be enough food of all types needed on board for at least 6months
3)How would you keep animals from hot climates & cold climates alive without any form of heating or cooling equipment
4)When released how did the animals get to their appropriate climates from there
5)If all creatures on board & Noahs family repopulated the earth apart from the incest which would have occured, fact is children / animals produced from there on would have extremely high risk of birth defects / mutations.
Thanks in advance.....

I hope this satisfies u
http://www.quran-m.com/firas/en1/in...-ark-at-gudi-mt&catid=61:historical&Itemid=90
 
Last edited:

tarekabdo12

Active Member
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 divided by 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to
Gen. 7:3)(
Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700

The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 x 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.



species that don't need to be in the ship:

  • 25,000 species of fish
  • 1,700 tunicates (mane chordates like sea squirts) found throughout the seas
  • 600 echinoderms including star fish and sea urchins
  • 107,000 mollusks such as mussels, clams and oysters
  • 10,000 coelenterates like corals and sea anemones, jelly fish and hydroids
  • 4,000 species of sponges
  • 31,000 protozoan, the microscopic single-celled creatures
from ✟*
 

Dan4reason

Facts not Faith
It was a huge vessel and there was not the variety of species that there are today. Only two parent kinds were required to be in the ark to reproduce after the flood. For example, two dogs or two cats were all that was necessary to give rise to all dog and cat species that exist today. These also could have been smaller juveniles rather than adult animals, taking up less room.
Not quite. if the animal was clean the ark took 7, if it was unclean, two were taken. Many animals cannot properly grow up without the supervision of parents so many kinds would have has to come onto the ark as adults. The ark was big, but not really huge.
How big was Noah's Ark? What were the dimensions?
According to the link above, the ark was 450 ft long, 75 ft, wide, and 45 ft high. That does not seem to be a super large boat and certainly not even big enough to hold even a fraction of the animals required. (note: the real Noah's ark is 5 times bigger than the replica below)
Noahs-Ark-replica.jpg

You how, even juvenile dinosaurs are several meters long. There was also a huge plethora of different dinosaur species.
dinosaurs.jpg

Even without them think of how much space the elephants, wolly mamoths, rhinosaurus, hippos, giraffes, tigers, giant sloths, saber tooth cats, gorillas, and humans would have taken up alone.

Mammals at the Cofrin Center for Biodiversity
Species: Reptile species, number
A genus is a category above speces and can contain dozens of species in it. There are still 1117 genera of mammals alone although most are small. Thing of all the other mamals that are now extinct. There are millions of bug species, and 8000 lizard species (not counting the vast majority who are extinct. I really doubt an ark would be able to hold all these animals.
Nimitz class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Answers.com - How tall is a Nimitz class aircraft carrier
An aircraft carrier is 1000 feet long, 252 feet wide and 240 feet tall. Of course it was triangular shaped so its volume is 252*240*1000/2=30,000,000 ft^3. The ark's area assuming it was a rectangle was 450*75*45= 1,500,000 ft^3, 1/20 the volume of an aircraft carrier.
Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier_Wallpaper_ba2jd.jpg

3862158712_f4736714df.jpg

I'm not even sure that even an aircraft carrier could have carried quite as many species as was necessary.
RESIZED_20087_WebsiteAerialImage.jpg

1120b_wal-mart-parking-lot.jpg

A good analogy for the size of the ark is Walmart. The average AREA of a walmart is 108,000 square feet. The area of the ark was 450*75= 33,000 square feet. So the ark took up about 1/3 of the area of an average Walmart. Not very good. From the looks of it, a walmart store is 20-30 ft tall, and the ark is 45 ft tall. So the ark is about 1.5 times as tall as a walmart. Do you really think a ship that has a far smaller volume than a walmart could really hold the majority of the land-dwelling biodiversity in this entire planet living and extinct.
Walmartstores.com: Walmart

Even now we see impressive migratory behavior of animals, birds, whales, and fish traveling hundreds and even thousands of miles. I find it amazing, but not hilarious. If God directed the animals to migrate to the ark it seems feasible to me that they could get there.
You are talking about a good percent of species migrating across huge oceans. Why didn't any kangaroos decide to stay in Asia? Penguins cannot survive in warm weather. This is a fact about the species. They certainly could not have made it all the way to Antartica in such destructive conditions.

You are making assumptions and guessing which animals were on the ark or what conditions they required in your attempt to make it seem ridiculous or impossible, but you do not actually know. It is also possible that animals were stronger and able to tolerate changing conditions, not being as specialized as they are today because of natural selection over time, including the fish. Amphidromous fish (such as salmon) travel between fresh and salt water.

What you are taking about is major macro-evolution in a matter of only a few thousand years. This is super-evolution for which we have absolutely no evidence for. If the number of adaptations that you are arguing for actually happened and in such a short period of time, this would derail quite a few creationist arguments.

One thing to note is that many animals have bodies that require very special diets. How did noah take care of this? Where did he get all this food. Did he have to carfully organize this food? How much space did he use to store it? Many animals required tons of food every day you know.

What did Noah do to promote cleanliness among animals? How did he displose of waste? You know, tons of feces and urine everywhere is going to get a lot of disease going.;)

What about all the plants? Many plant species would have been destroyed and the world would have been mostly barren for decades.

What's the difference between freshwater and saltwater?:: FreshMarine.com
Freshwater fish in salt water
Freshwater fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Would a saltwater fish die if put in freshwater? - Yahoo! Answers
Fresh water fish need to keep salt in their bodes and require different body strutures including more scales, and gills that disolve gasses while keeping water in. If you put them in salt water, they will lose too much mass (due to loss of body water) and die. Salt water fish don't need to keep the salt in so much because their environments have way more salt. If placed in fresh water, they would lose too much salt and die.

Some fish migrate from fresh water to salt water and back again. This requires timed physiological adaptations through a fish's life cycle. E.g. at the first stage a salmon has the body of a fresh water fish, at middle age it adjusts to have a body of a salf-water fish, and at old age it goes back to being fresh water. As wikipedia says below:
"Species migrating between marine and fresh waters need adaptations for both environments; when in salt water they need to keep the bodily salt concentration on a level lower than the surroundings, and vice versa. Many species solve this problem by associating different habitats with different stages of life. Both eels, anadromous salmoniform fish and the sea lamprey have different tolerances in salinity in different stages of their lives."

So even anadromous fish are salt-water some of the time, and fresh-water other times. If the fish before the flood were anadromous, amd if some species were in the fresh water stage at the time that the flood hit, they would have been killed by the salt water of the flood. The flood would have disrupted many fish species' body changing cycles, and those who were naturally turning into fresh water fish in preparation for another period of their lives would instead of safely migrating to a river, they would be killed by the flood waters which were still covering the earth.

When the flood ended, those fish in a salt-water state would have been killed off if they found theselves on dry land or fresh water. In summary, even if your unproven conjecture about all fish ancestors in the past being anadromous is true, they flood would have still destroyed most fresh water species. I just leaned all this stuff about fish today so I am open to any corrections to my arguments forum members are willing to give me.

There is also zero evidence that there was ever a global flood. Where did the flood waters come from? Where did they go? It is obvious that the great flood story is a Middle Eastern myth and not science at all. It has no evidence, and all points trying to defend the flood from refutationd don't have evidence either. They are simply conjecture.

Another problem with your hypothesis is why would natural selection make hundreds of thousands of species pickier than they were in the past? Why make diets more restricted and specialized? Why make thousands of species' choice of livable environment more restricted in such a short time scale and why make diets more restricted and specialized? Is this even feasible in only a few thousand years? I simply don't see they natural selection pressure for this to be strong enough. There is also no evidence of this evolution even happen. Show me the transitional species!

In summary, the ark is simply not big enough to fit even a bare minimum skeleton number of the species on earth living and extinct, and all the food they would require. Such a proposition is unproven and highly unfeasible. The theory of evolution is a far better explanation because it makes more sense looking at the natural world, and has way more evidence.
 
Last edited:

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
People talk about the dimensions of a ship which is all well and good, but a simple fact is that it really doesn't matter how big the ship was in turbulent flood waters it would smash apart for sure. Wood and tar isn't strong enough and the bigger the ship gets the bigger the applied forces and moments applied to the ship become.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
I think Creationists have to accept that trying to use science to prove these things is ridiculous.

Surely, if you believe all these events happened, isn't it easier to just say that God made it happen because He's God, and not try to use science to explain how these things happened?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I think Creationists have to accept that trying to use science to prove these things is ridiculous.

Surely, if you believe all these events happened, isn't it easier to just say that God made it happen because He's God, and not try to use science to explain how these things happened?
But then you end up with the nuke-it-from-orbit issue. It's pretty much impossible to make it consistent no matter what you do.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Do you also believe that you and your ancestors then are descendants of noah who was a jew according to the bible?

Well, I believe jews were the followers of God as well as Moses and Jesus. Noah as well shares the same belief that Mohammed and the other prophets are defending. So may be they mean Noah was talking about the same religion the Jews have and this is true.

I believe that all prophets have the same idea and religion as well as the same God. I actually believe that the Jews were the reciever of the true relevation from God as well as the christ. The problem is that they changed some of the words of the Tawrah, and this what Muslims take against Judism. You can see that the bible contains bad stories about the prophets like Noah, Lout ad others. This is totally refused in Islam as you can they be the leaders of humanity to virtues and they do lots of sins. They have disgraced their prophets by their nasty words. In addition, the meaning of the unity of the relevation is misunderstood by the Jews, they refused to follow Mohamed because he's an Arabian not because he is against their dogma. They seem to understand religion according to rational element not according to the content of the religion.
If u say that Noah is a Jew, so I'd tell u that Noah came before Israel "Yacoub" the father of the Jews so how come he's a Jew?!!

I think you mean he shares the same religion , I'd say YES this is true. All the prophets share the same religion. Muslims have respect for Moses and Jesus , as well.
 
Top