Noahs Ark (How can anyone possibly believe the story)

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 divided by 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to
Gen. 7:3)(
Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700
The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 x 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.

"Food for the people"... so all these animals that are stacked like cordwood for a year don't need to eat?

 

[outhouse]

The hebrew says earth (region), nowhere is globe refrenced because "Global" was never a term. The land was localized; ask a Jew.

The truth of it is God does not like wickedness.

wrong again

it is implied %100 as a global flood covering the whole earth and killing every breathing creature

give me a break, you know better.


YES the abrahamic god does not like wickedness, the competition gets to him :angel2:

 

[Jose Fly]

Yes, this is non-sense. I totally agree. But I didn't say ever that it happened in a short duration . I can't contradict science. I believe it happened long time ago and the Qur'an didn't mention a time for the occurrence of the flood. I don't also know anything about moving continents as I didn't read all the comments and I don't believe this of course. You are right. I don't still understand why the flood contradicts science? I don't say it happened 10,000 years ago, this is illogical.

When do you think it happened? Exactly how long do you think humans have been capable of building seaworthy ships?

You've already posted the "kinds" argument, which as I've already pointed out is absurd. And it also brings up how you think the animals got there and then returned after the flood was over. And where the heck is the water? If there was enough to flood the earth, why isn't the earth flooded now? The reason we have "dry land" is because there isn't enough water on the earth to cover it.

 

[ninerbuff]

What's funny here is that if we took today's biggest ship, and today's technology along with it, it would still be DAMN HARD and near impossible to replicate what noah apparently was described to do with lesser knowledge and help.
If you asked most christians today about it being possible (remember just 2 of each kind of animal) and repopulating the whole world with just 4 couples, you think they'd really believe it would be possible? You know they would doubt it, but because it comes from some book they have faith in, it MUST be true or their faith would be lax. And they don't want to admit that.

 

[outhouse]

why does everyone forget there are two different versions

one version doesnt have 2 of every animal on the planet.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"Food for the people"... so all these animals that are stacked like cordwood for a year don't need to eat?

Read it again.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Read it again.

Wait... Yeah, I read that a bit wrong. Still, those would be some uncomfortable animals.

Also, IIRC, cattle and humans eat their body weight in food in about a month. Other animals with higher metabolisms would probably eat at a higher rate. There's still not enough room for all the food they'd need for a year.

 

[gnostic]

The hebrew says earth (region), nowhere is globe refrenced because "Global" was never a term. The land was localized; ask a Jew.

There is every indication that the Genesis' Flood was global.

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.

And all flesh perished that moved upon the earth, both fowl, and cattle, and beast, and every swarming thing that swarmeth upon the earth, and every man;

all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, whatsoever was in the dry land, died.

And He blotted out every living substance which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping thing, and fowl of the heaven; and they were blotted out from the earth; and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

It is late, and I'm too tired to dig out my 1985 translation of JPS Tanakh. :sorry1:

In any case, this seems like global, judging by this older translation. NIV and KJV are about the same.

 

[Dan4reason]

The hebrew says earth (region), nowhere is globe refrenced because "Global" was never a term. The land was localized; ask a Jew.

The truth of it is God does not like wickedness.

Then you are not taking your bible at face value. If there is such a glaring misconception in the story of Noah, I wonder how many other places have problems. If I were you, I would scower the bible verse by verse looking at the Hewbrew and Greek versions, to make sure the english bible is accurate.

The bible is sounding more and more like the work of an infinite being, right?

 

[Dan4reason]

The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 divided by 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to
Gen. 7:3)(
Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700
The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 x 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.



species that don't need to be in the ship:

• 25,000 species of fish
• 1,700 tunicates (mane chordates like sea squirts) found throughout the seas
• 600 echinoderms including star fish and sea urchins
• 107,000 mollusks such as mussels, clams and oysters
• 10,000 coelenterates like corals and sea anemones, jelly fish and hydroids
• 4,000 species of sponges
• 31,000 protozoan, the microscopic single-celled creatures

from ✟*

Where are the volume calculations? Remember that if you have a box high enough to store an elephant, the rest of the floor will be that high, leaving a lot of open space for all the other animals, wasting volume. Realize that there are a lot of insects and a lot of something very small builds up after a while. Amphibians and birds do take up some space. You will also need some way of disposing with waste products, and carnivores will need meat to survive. Some animals eat a lot of food, e.g. the elephant will eat about 150 kg of food every day.

You are also ignoring the multitude of extinct birds, mammals, and dinosaurs.

These are only a few representative of the few dinosaur and extinct mamal kinds.
And... wait. Don't forget the prehistoric giant insects.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Where are the volume calculations? Remember that if you have a box high enough to store an elephant, the rest of the floor will be that high, leaving a lot of open space for all the other animals, wasting volume.

The theoretical maximum denisty for close packing of spheres is about 0.74... i.e. in an idealized case, about 1/4 of the volume will be empty space between the spheres.

I'd imagine that in the case of irregular shapes like animals, the maximum density would probably be lower... although it's a bit of a moot point, since even animals jammed into a volume like sardines in a can would probably still need to breathe to live.

Edit - of course, there's another explanation: that God made the Ark bigger on the inside than on the outside. I'm surprised that nobody's suggested this yet. I guess not too many Young Earth Creationists are Doctor Who fans.

 

[PolyHedral]

Edit - of course, there's another explanation: that God made the Ark bigger on the inside than on the outside. I'm surprised that nobody's suggested this yet. I guess not too many Young Earth Creationists are Doctor Who fans.

I always knew Clarke was right.

 

[Dan4reason]

The theoretical maximum denisty for close packing of spheres is about 0.74... i.e. in an idealized case, about 1/4 of the volume will be empty space between the spheres.

I'd imagine that in the case of irregular shapes like animals, the maximum density would probably be lower... although it's a bit of a moot point, since even animals jammed into a volume like sardines in a can would probably still need to breathe to live.

Edit - of course, there's another explanation: that God made the Ark bigger on the inside than on the outside. I'm surprised that nobody's suggested this yet. I guess not too many Young Earth Creationists are Doctor Who fans.

Thats hilarious. I once read about people building a 4 dimensional house in a Robert Heinlein book taking a house that looks small from the outside in a three dimensional word but is actually very large because much of it is in different dimensions.

If I were a creationist, I would just say that all the issues with the ark were solved by magic. God just shrunk down all the animals, froze them, made it so they did not have to defecate and eat.

Of course then we have to ask, what was the whole point with building a big boat, getting all the animals to migrate to it, putting all the animals on it, flooding the earth by making more water appear on the earth, taking care of the animals (partly through magic), somehow making all the water go away, removing the animals from the boat, migrating them back to all the 4 corners of the earth (the bible's conception of the shape of the earth), and then repopulating the earth with plants and animals creating new species to bring back some ecological diversity. Why not just make all the bad people just disappear and send them strait to hell?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thats hilarious. I once read about people building a 4 dimensional house in a Robert Heinlein book taking a house that looks small from the outside in a three dimensional word but is actually very large because much of it is in different dimensions.

I read that story! "And He Built a Crooked House"!

That's right - an architect decides to build a house like a three-dimensional unfolding of a tesseract, but then it folds in on itself in four dimensions. Every time you move from one room to another, there's a 50-50 chance of which room you'll end up in.

If I were a creationist, I would just say that all the issues with the ark were solved by magic. God just shrunk down all the animals, froze them, made it so they did not have to defecate and eat.

Yeah... I mentioned that earlier in the thread. Once you start with the idea of God creating a miraculous flood, you've opened the door to "Goddidit" as the answer to any problem with the story.

Of course then we have to ask, what was the whole point with building a big boat, getting all the animals to migrate to it, putting all the animals on it, flooding the earth by making more water appear on the earth, taking care of the animals (partly through magic), somehow making all the water go away, removing the animals from the boat, migrating them back to all the 4 corners of the earth (the bible's conception of the shape of the earth), and then repopulating the earth with plants and animals creating new species to bring back some ecological diversity. Why not just make all the bad people just disappear and send them strait to hell?

Just to mess with people, I guess.

I was watching a "Christian news" show this morning. They had an interview with someone involved in the rescue of those Chilean miners who talked about how "God saved them" by making sure the drill shaft went down as far as it did without breaking or getting stuck. As I was listening, I realized that the implication of this was that the 2 months while the miners were trapped was just God's way of toying with everyone. Supposedly, God was capable of saving the miners - did save the miners, in fact - but he let the miners sit down there and their families worry for giggles, apparently.

 

[lunamoth]

Yeah... I mentioned that earlier in the thread. Once you start with the idea of God creating a miraculous flood, you've opened the door to "Goddidit" as the answer to any problem with the story.

But, in a sense there is no problem with saying "Goddidit," if God is the creator and ground of all being. No, it is not a scientific explanation, and it never was meant to be. The flood story is a story, and the whole approach of shooting it down because it is clearly impossible, or trying to find archeological or scientific evidence that it happened, is silly.

The flood story is about humanity being reborn through water, set free through and in spite of trial and suffering. It is about how all of creation is in this together. It is about how in spite of the evil that lurks in our hearts and on our doorstep, we are loved.

We sing about how God created us. Does that mean we don't understand where babies come from, so we need God as an explanation? No, of course not.

We understand evolution of species, we have explored space, and we learn more all the times about the workings of our own minds. None of these things displaces God from being God or makes God unnecessary. It simply means we understand more and more about this amazing universe. Science does not explain creation, heaven, or our souls. It explains evolution, astronomy, and psychology.

 

[outhouse]

The flood story is about humanity being reborn through water

I think your a little off there


its about ,,,,Fear ,,,, dont tick god off or he will flush you

Ok just kidding

there allot of allegory and parrabels involved and theres allot of different messages that can be taken different ways

 

[lunamoth]

I think your a little off there


its about ,,,,Fear ,,,, dont tick god off or he will flush you

Ok just kidding

there allot of allegory and parrabels involved and theres allot of different messages that can be taken different ways

Because we are always growing and changing, our cultures change, our needs change, it is necessary that we continue to reinterpret our story.

 

[Dan4reason]

I read that story! "And He Built a Crooked House"!

That's right - an architect decides to build a house like a three-dimensional unfolding of a tesseract, but then it folds in on itself in four dimensions. Every time you move from one room to another, there's a 50-50 chance of which room you'll end up in.

That was the best wasn't it. Heinlein was always so original.

Maybe we will be seeing a creationist article called, "And Noah built a crooked boat."
At least this theory will be more consistent than some of their other ideas e.g. a thick layer of ice or water in the sky that crashes to the ground when an asteriod hits the earth and breaks up the ground releasing a bunch of water that is underground in hypothetical giant chambers.

What's more believable, a 4-dimensional boat or a cosmic being planting all the dinosaur bones in the ground 6,000 year ago just to trick us?

Yeah... I mentioned that earlier in the thread. Once you start with the idea of God creating a miraculous flood, you've opened the door to "Goddidit" as the answer to any problem with the story.

That's creation science for you. When the theory doesn't fit the facts (assuming the "theory" is fasifiable at all) just throw in a little magic and speculation in the equation.

Just to mess with people, I guess.

I was watching a "Christian news" show this morning. They had an interview with someone involved in the rescue of those Chilean miners who talked about how "God saved them" by making sure the drill shaft went down as far as it did without breaking or getting stuck. As I was listening, I realized that the implication of this was that the 2 months while the miners were trapped was just God's way of toying with everyone. Supposedly, God was capable of saving the miners - did save the miners, in fact - but he let the miners sit down there and their families worry for giggles, apparently.

This all just supports my claim that God make the world just to screw around with us mortals and have some fun (and get worshipped along the way).

Of course God didn't do anything when the Russian submarine Kursk exploded and hit the bottom. The very delayed rescue team was too late and 118 people died.
The Remains of Kursk Submarine | English Russia
Russian submarine Kursk explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course God didn't do anything when the Russian submarine Kursk exploded and hit the bottom. The very delayed rescue team was too late and 118 people died.
The Remains of Kursk Submarine | English Russia
Russian submarine Kursk explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, those sailors were all godless communists; that's why God left them to die. The Chilean miners were all devout Christians; that's why he only left them lying in cold darkness for two months.

 

[outhouse]

it is necessary that we continue to reinterpret our story

I wish people would

problem lies with people afraid of getting to far away from the original messages