Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I tend to wonder an almighty didn't make it all good.
What.......he didn't know how this was going to turn out...?
What.......he didn't know how this was going to turn out...?
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Noahs Ark
- Thread starter zodiacseven
- Start date
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I beg of you, keep your barbaric myth-system to yourself and don't contaminate a potentially scientific conversation with sagas of your war God, O.K.? Now, about that science...got any?
Bware
I'm the Jugganaut!!
Originally Posted by averageJOE
Let's approach this story from a different angle and talk about how Noah and his family populated the entire earth. The whole silly Flood story - SkepticReport
If we create a simple formula using todays population of ~6 billion, and figure in the starting population (8 individuals), and the starting time (4360 YBP), we get an annual growth rate of about 0.0047. Since that IS what happened, according to creationists, and it IS the only possible explanation for todays human population thenWe are talking about rapid human reproduction here! And this is all assuming not a single baby had a birth defect that prevented it from reproducing. Also, families would not have been able to stay together very long. From one generation to the next they would have to constantly pick up and leave.
- At Christs death there were only about half a million people in the whole world!
- At the time the Israelites entered Canaan, (about 1180 BCE) we get a world population of 2024! By the time you divide that up between Egypt, Canaan, the rest of the world, and Israel, that leaves maybe 6 or 7 people for the Israelite army!
- If we go back to the time that the Jews were expelled from Egypt, in 1560 BCE, we get a world population of only 340 people!
- In 2300 BCE there were only about 10 people on Earth! How did fewer than a dozen people build the pyramids?
This was posted almost a month ago, in this thread, and still I haven't seen anyone who believes the flood refute this. Are you going to keep ignoring sound logic or are you just afraid to answer? I mean you wouldn't wanna invalidate your faith..
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Are you sure that's not an ambitious task they would be undertaking?
It's simple for them to rationalize in their own mind a flood on a global level but data is already available for then to scrutinize. No deep mental thought or trying to work out complex calculations. We have the flood narrative saying it happened and yet we have pages upon pages of data showing it could never have happened.. The story of creation as well as the story of Noah and his flood falls flat when put to the test.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Bware
I'm the Jugganaut!!
Well I personally do believe in Creation. Although I don't to prescribe to any of the mumbojumbo in the Bible. I totally support evolution though, just not abiogenesis (sorry I came from a monkey, not fish) I believe there IS some sort of godthingy, but I don't know what it is, or how it go it there, nor will I or anyone ever be able to put a name to it. What's the point?
I know what you mean though, it's like all of these people can't use their heads and take this stuff for what it was originally: an explanation for huge events from a primitive people. I mean if the whole Euphrates river flooded and a farmer hopped on his barge with his family and animals, having no knowledge that there was anything past the distant mountains, water as far as the eye could see, wouldn't he then assess that it was a world wide flood?
Hitchey
Member
I suspect that most people who believe in the literal truth of the Flood don't give it that much thought and so don't really notice the contradictions. My father believed in Adam and Eve and in evolution. The explanation, I think, is that he really didn't spend that much time thinking about either one long enough to realize they conflicted, but he was certainly critical of me for calling Noah a myth.
TheGodless1
Member
Actually it is "literal" to a point. Realize the known world was about 1 % of what it is today. We are talking about a time 10,000 years ago after the last ice age when man came down from the mountains.You wont see much of any evidence of a great flood because you arent thinking of it in the right perspective. Close...but not quite close enough. I live in Kansas which was, during the last Ice age retreat, under water. Proof of this being fossilized sharks teeth remains. You can go into the Northern U.S.A. and Canada and find clear cut markings of the Wisconsin Glacier retreat.... It's amazing if you know what to look for but only certain regions would have been affected. The Biblical story of the flood coincides with the time line of the end of the last Ice Age. Another is on the way as it always does. Some call it global warming that mankind has caused. But studies show that global warming happens every time an Ice Age enters. It is cause and effect. As a geology major I am truly shocked to hear you say you dont see those around your city. It was a cataclysmic event that literally changed the face of the earth forever but at that time mankind had not the population we do now. Archaeology suggests the Americas (both North and South) have only been populated in the last 30,000 - 60,000 years. I assure you as an Anthropology and archaeology major that the great flood did happen and mankind did survive it. But the survivors were few and it destroyed many civilizations which now are only just beginning to be discovered. If you would like to know more on this let me know and I'd be happy to elaborate and maybe help you with your studies as your can definitely help mine as well! And Also the flooding would have occured mainly in the low lying areas which is why mountains were mentioned in myth. The Klaises River Cave in South Africa is a perfect example of this as man came out of their caves about that time. I'll have to be at home to read my atlas of Archaeology and The Time Complete History of The earth which is written and compiled by many leading historians and archaeologists/geologists. Flooding typically happens in low lying areas so people who argue that it most certainly did NOT happen may need to check their sources again or update those sources. Check out information regarding the underwater pyramids in the Ryukyu Islands area of Japan. These monuments are at the moment believed to be more than 3500 years older than the pyramids of Giza, Egypt. Meaning advanced civilizations might possibly have occured before those in Mesopotamia and Egypt. History is ever changing as we discover more and more hidden traces of civilizations. Many of which were ruined by the events during the last Ice Age.
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In reply to post 1023 above:
In Genesis chapters 10,11 we read of 70 families by that time.
The life span was very l-o-n-g for the first several hundred years after the Flood. The life span decreased according to Moses about the year 1500 BC(BCE) Psalm 90:10.
Exodus 1:7 says Israel was very fruitful, and since there was plenty of food at that time the people would more readily reproduce.
Exodus 12:37 puts Israel at 600,000 men. From Genesis 46 to Exodus 12 was 215 years. 600,000 'men' is not counting the whole population.
Even after the Israelites became slaves they ate bread, fish, cucumbers, leeks, onions, garlic, pots of meat, and watermelons. Exo 16:3; Num 11:5.
Since they and the Egyptians had plenty of food they all could have been very fruitful.
In the first century Peter traveled to distant Babylon. Since Peter was assigned to preach particularly to the Jews there it would be reasonable that there was a Jewish population in distant Babylon at that time. For what it is worth, the New Encyclopedia Britannica says at that time the chief centers of Jewish population outside of Palestine were in Syria, Asia Minor, Babylon and Egypt with an estimated 100,000 Jews each. (1Peter 5:13; Gal 2:9)
Population growth leveled off in some areas, and some areas remained the same, while other areas increased. Even today we see uneven population growth.
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richardlowellt
Well-Known Member
As an archaeology major I would suggest you study just a little harder, a global flood never happened and the mountain of geological evidence has apparently skipped right by you. Before we start with this evidence you must first explain where 13.5 billion cubic miles of extra water came from and where it went. The geological evidence for a non-existent flood are as follows.
1.) The relative age of mountains, why weren't the Sierra Navadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the flood?
2.) Why no evidence of a flood found in ice core samples? cores from Greenland have been dated back to more than 40,000 years. A Global flood would leave layers of sediment, also changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, no such changes or sediment layers are found.
3.) No evidence of a flood found in tree ring dating. Tree ring datings go back 10,000 years.
Further, how did ALL fish survive? How did sensitive marine life survive such as coral. How did disease survive with no humans to carry it. How did short-lives species survive like mayflies.
Why no mention of a global flood in Egyptian records or records kept in Mesopotamia, both existed at that time.
I can assure you, no such mythical event happened, and beyond anyone should know this.
TheGodless1
Member
Flooding wouldnt have been as global as implied. I'm sorry I didnt clarify. The water came from the melted ice caps from the polar regions during the last global warming event before the last ice age which radio isotopes have confirmed existed. The flooding was more localized to the lower lying areas of the world. As for the fish? Not ALL fish survived. At deeper depths there are rifts such as the San Marianas Trench in the Pacific which is the deepest in the world at nearly 7 miles deep. Neer the deepest part the water nearly boils and life exists such as tubers and other marine biologic creatures. this is due to the moderate temperatures found between the 6 miles of freezing water above the trench and the scorching waters of the abysmal trench.And there was flooding in both Mesopotamian and Egyptian Records. In fact the course of the Euphrates was changed a few times throughout history due to the annual inundation (FLOODS!) of that river. This also occured in Egypt as well. Sea levels have always risen and fallen since the creation of earth. There have always been magnetic reversals and ice ages and global warmings. And not many trees survived the ice age flooding as well as many civilizations. Now flooding on a grand scale? eh...might be possible but as you said no proof of. B ut there is proof of massive flooding in certain low lying areas. The Mediterranean Sea was formed during the flloding aftermath of the ice age. as was the black sea. As stated before Kansas where I live was once under water and I have a few sharks teeth gathered from the sides of the road here. So you cant say it never happened as research like you are suggestingh was done in ...lol....Greenland. Ice core samples from the polar regions tell a different story and the Sierra Nevada mountain range was also near th a valley where the much lower in height App. Mts were not as fortunate to have any outlets. Plus if you look at a topographical map you can plainly see where the wisconsin ice sheet was the creator of most of the valley in California, Oregon, and Washington areas. That left quite the depression geologically speaking. But my emphasis of study is mainly anthropology and religions and not based in the americas as the amount of civilizations at that time were small and primitive in comaprison to the asiatic continent.
richardlowellt
Well-Known Member
darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
As a geotechnical engineer i'm quite shocked you're backing such nonsense? We take core samples from all around Queensland here in Australia. Its a breach of contract for me to post core samples for you, but im sure you've seen a soil profile before. Soil sediment builds about 9mm every 6000 years here depending on the wind direction, and sheltering factors. Given my city is surrounded by a major mountain range, similar to Cape Town South Africa, we have pretty ideal conditions. There is nothing in the soil to suggest major flooding in the last 100000 years because the soil has not been stressed as such. Enough water to flood the entire country would leave distinct evidence in the composition of the soil. If you could show me a sample that does, ill acknowledge it.
I'd be interested to examine any core samples you have from your city directing towards a cataclysmic event if you hasve them.
TheGodless1
Member
As i stated before Im not a geologist. However, there were instances of massive flooding in low lying areas. and as previously stated by global flooding, I suggested that the world as it was KNOWN back in that time was much smaller. The populations of Earth werent in contact to share information as we are now. While I agree with you to a point you have failed to grasp mine. The biblical flood was of massive proportions in THAT area of the world. And how is it that if there was NEVER a massive Global flood would I be able to find sharks teeth in the middle of my continent and have evidence that most of the midwestern United States was under a large sea? Perhaps Australia is a little different as far as Flooding. But I do appreciate the feedback from a geologist. Paleo climatology has evidenced massive flooding at that time in many DIFFERENT parts of the world. Maybe not "Global" but it did happen all over the globe at that specific period in time, during the last Ice Age. Not so nonsensical when I put it in those terms. I was only trying to simplify it for those who dont know about radio isotoping and carbon dating while trying to stick more to Anthropological and archeaological evidence of flooding in the "world" at that time. By world I mean the regions now found around the Mediterranean and India whose oral and written histories speak of flooding on epidemic scales. Perhaps I should have been more clear for the sake of argument with other scientists, but like I said, was just trying to simplify it for those who dont study this stuff. Science is always changing.
darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
There is a huge difference between flooding in low lying areas to major cataclysmic events. A flood in Bangladesh is not as cataclysmic as a flood in Nepal because of relative sea levels.
We have sharks teeth in Australia too, as well as coral high up about 1000m above current sea levels. People forget though that tectonic uplift occured rather recently, and that the east coast of Australia used to be part of the continental shelf. We have found coral about 150km inland while digging trenches (being a "trainee" isn't fun). Did you have a date for the sharks teeth?
About a year ago, there was more flooding around the world than the time of Noah. China, India, Indonesia, USA, Scandanavia... all flooded.
Wasn't the biblical flood comparable to the demise of the Sumerian culture?
However, there is a Flood legend in Australia 'Kurnai' where there was destruction by water, humans spared, animals spared, and preserved in a vessel.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
So, URA, if the Australian aborigines were call killed in the flood, who lived to tell the tale?
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
So were they on the Ark?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
So the aborigines are descendants of Noah and his family then? And arrived in Australia after 4000 B.C.E.?
btw, do you think all the other scientific objections to the flood, repeatedly listed in this thread, are just going to go away if you ignore them?