Noahs Ark

[Autodidact]

I appreciate your replies. The rain of course was 40 days/ 40 nights. With Noah being in the Ark 370 days or parts of 371 separate days.

Gen 7:11 mentions the windows of the heaven opened. So some of the rain came down in channels. Verse 18 says the waters prevailed (overwhelmed) and greatly increased. Gen 8:2 says the windows or channels were stopped up and rain restrained. Waters abated after 150 days.

Before the Deluge the area where the polar ice caps are were not frozen.
Apparently oceans were smaller and continents larger with river channels now extending far out under the oceans.

Way back a National Geographic said if all the land was dumped evenly into the sea the water level would cover the earth to 1 1/2 miles deep.

Where the Bible is silent we do not know details, but where possible I will post what the biblical account states.

So you realize all of this is physically impossible, right? Further that we know as surely as we know anything that it did not happen?

What is a window of heaven?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But there was no ice to melt on earth. That developed after the Flood started.
The canopy surrounding the earth kept the temperature warm.

The Rainbow covenant or contract assures that the earth will never again be flooded.

This time destruction will come to the wicked after the political world will turn on the world's religious sector. The words from Jesus mouth will be so sharp that his words will act as an executioner's word.


Rev 19:11,15; Isaiah 11:4; Psalm 37:38; 92:7; Proverbs 2:21,22; 10:30

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So you realize all of this is physically impossible, right? Further that we know as surely as we know anything that it did not happen?

What is a window of heaven?

Some of the water came down from the water canopy in large channels of water when the window or floodgate was opened.

The window would have been more like a floodgate.

 

[Autodidact]

Some of the water came down from the water canopy in large channels of water when the window or floodgate was opened.

The window would have been more like a floodgate.

What water canopy? What is a water canopy? What would keep the water up there?

URA: Your main problem is trying to make sense of something that never happened. If you take all the water in the clouds, all the water underground, all the water in the oceans, it's not enough water to cover the entire earth. It just isn't. Sorry, it didn't happen. I suggest you revise your theology accordingly.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What water canopy? What is a water canopy? What would keep the water up there?

URA: Your main problem is trying to make sense of something that never happened. If you take all the water in the clouds, all the water underground, all the water in the oceans, it's not enough water to cover the entire earth. It just isn't. Sorry, it didn't happen. I suggest you revise your theology accordingly.

If all the land on earth was evenly dumped into the oceans how high would the water level rise? If the polar ice caps melt how high would the water level rise?

The canopy would be as Gen (1:6-8,14,17,20) says firmament or expanse (Heb raqia). There would come to be in between the waters and a dividing to occur between the waters and the waters. ( waters covering the earth and waters above the earth). Then there came to be a division (open space) between the waters that were beneath the expanse or firmament and the waters above the expanse. This would make the entire earth enveloped in water mist or vapor. Atmospheric vapor. So there was a water canopy or atmospheric expanse surrounding the globe at that time.

 

[Vile Atheist]

If all the land on earth was evenly dumped into the oceans how high would the water level rise?

If there was no land to begin with, what would the oceans be sitting on? I was going to attempt to give you an equation for the rate of change of volume of the Earth as a function of its radius using calculus and with a few Bible-based assumptions, hopefully answer your question. But I can't because I'm not quite sure what you envision. A ball of water?

If the polar ice caps melt how high would the water level rise?

I can tell you the volume of liquid water that would be at a given temperature.

I can tell you how many metres the water would rise if the Earth was a perfect sphere (with consideration to its surface area), using calculus.

But the topography of Earth is too difficult for me to pursue with a back of the envelope calculation. Sorry. Any numbers I can come up with will be overly-simplistic and not reality-based. It wouldn't be accurate at all. Remember in these calculations we make a lot of assumptions.

 

[skydivephil]

But there was no ice to melt on earth. That developed after the Flood started.
The canopy surrounding the earth kept the temperature warm.

The Rainbow covenant or contract assures that the earth will never again be flooded.

This time destruction will come to the wicked after the political world will turn on the world's religious sector. The words from Jesus mouth will be so sharp that his words will act as an executioner's word.


Rev 19:11,15; Isaiah 11:4; Psalm 37:38; 92:7; Proverbs 2:21,22; 10:30

So can you tell us when you think the first ice formed on Earth and what your basis for this is?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

But there was no ice to melt on earth. That developed after the Flood started.

Sorry but this is too funny. It is a fact that ice core samples taken have been shown to be there in existence before the so called flood.....:areyoucra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core_samples

 

[Autodidact]

If all the land on earth was evenly dumped into the oceans how high would the water level rise? If the polar ice caps melt how high would the water level rise?

Help me picture the ridiculous scenario you're describing. What you're saying is that all of the land mass on earth that is not underwater is scraped off as by a giant bulldozer and dumped into the oceans? Is that what you're asserting? Because, if so (and let me remark parenthetically that I have heard some really absurd scenarios by some flood enthusiasts, each more impossible than the last, and all of them contradictory) I have to say that is the single most ridiculous, impossible, hilarious scenario for a world-wide flood I've ever heard. Is that what you're asserting actually happened?

Let me just ask you one tiny little question that would have occurred to any normal person at this point: wouldn't the people living on the earth have noticed that the ground was being scooped out from under them and deposited in the ocean? Like say, the people who wrote the Bible? Is there any mention of any such extreme, impossible, fairy-tale-like thing happening anywhere in the Bible? (or anywhere else--I mention the Bible because you say you believe it, although God only knows why.)

The canopy would be as Gen (1:6-8,14,17,20) says firmament or expanse (Heb raqia). There would come to be in between the waters and a dividing to occur between the waters and the waters. ( waters covering the earth and waters above the earth). Then there came to be a division (open space) between the waters that were beneath the expanse or firmament and the waters above the expanse. This would make the entire earth enveloped in water mist or vapor. Atmospheric vapor. So there was a water canopy or atmospheric expanse surrounding the globe at that time.

Do we agree that the total amount of water in the atmosphere, on earth and beneath the earth was the same as now? God didn't bring in any water from outer space and send it back there after your myth was over?

 

[Vile Atheist]

Help me picture the ridiculous scenario you're describing. What you're saying is that all of the land mass on earth that is not underwater is scraped off as by a giant bulldozer and dumped into the oceans? Is that what you're asserting? Because, if so (and let me remark parenthetically that I have heard some really absurd scenarios by some flood enthusiasts, each more impossible than the last, and all of them contradictory) I have to say that is the single most ridiculous, impossible, hilarious scenario for a world-wide flood I've ever heard. Is that what you're asserting actually happened?

Let me just ask you one tiny little question that would have occurred to any normal person at this point: wouldn't the people living on the earth have noticed that the ground was being scooped out from under them and deposited in the ocean? Like say, the people who wrote the Bible? Is there any mention of any such extreme, impossible, fairy-tale-like thing happening anywhere in the Bible? (or anywhere else--I mention the Bible because you say you believe it, although God only knows why.)

I know, Autodidact. I was starting to attempt to answer his question to the best of my scientific knowledge and then 30 seconds later, realized just how weird it was.

In his defence, I don't think he's actually suggesting this is a cause of the flood. At least I hope to Christ he's not.

In any case, at least I have shown with some hard numbers that it would be impossible for the Sun to melt all the ice on Earth in 40 days/nights.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But there is no reason for the Sun to melt all the ice on earth in 40 days/nights.
According to Genesis the globe was warm at that time.
Don't researchers find animals that were flash frozen at the ice caps?

What if the mountainous areas of the earth were at a lower level at the time before the Deluge started? Lower in height would mean mountains could be covered with a lower water level.

If today all the land was made level by dumping the excess in the oceans how high would the water level rise on earth?

 

[Arlanbb]

But there is no reason for the Sun to melt all the ice on earth in 40 days/nights.
According to Genesis the globe was warm at that time.
Don't researchers find animals that were flash frozen at the ice caps?

What if the mountainous areas of the earth were at a lower level at the time before the Deluge started? Lower in height would mean mountains could be covered with a lower water level.

If today all the land was made level by dumping the excess in the oceans how high would the water level rise on earth?

Please give us a BC date for when all this happened, the worldwide Genesus flood. If it happened you should have a date for when it happened. We know when the Ur and Egyptian civilization happened because we have evidence so tell us when the biblical flood happened.

 

[Vile Atheist]

I think I get what you're trying to say. If all the land on Earth was made flat and the land above sea level was put in the oceans, how far would the water level rise.

But anyways, here goes my shot at it (disregarding the absurdity of the idea):

The average height of land above sea level for the earth is 5449 inches. (Source not reputable)

I hate the Imperial system, so 5449 inches = 138.4046 metres.

~30% of the Earth is land.

So the surface area of Earth times 30% times the average height of land above sea level = volume of land above sea level.

Note: For simplicity of calculation, I'm assuming land BELOW sea level is negligable. The effect of neglecting this part of the calculation will make the final answer slightly higher than what it actually is.

The surface area of Earth is 5.1 × 10^8 km² (from Wikipedia). This equals 5.1 x 10^14 m² (1 km² = 10^6 m²)

So the volume of land above sea level is approximately 2.12 x 10^16 cubic metres.

The volume of the Earth's oceans is 1.35 x 10^24 mL (from one of my previous posts). This is equal to 1.35 x 10^18 cubic metres of water.

The combined volume of land above sea level and water is therefore: 1.37 x 10^18 m^3.

The ratio of the two volumes (Combined volume of land above sea level and oceans to volume of the oceans) = 1.015%

The mean radius of Earth is 6,371.0 km (according to Wikipedia and assuming the radius goes to sea level).

(For the ease of calculation, I'm going to assume it is uniform - that Earth is a perfect sphere)

The ratio times the radius of Earth gives 6466.6 km.

6466.6km - 6371.0 km = 95.6 kilometres

But keep in mind we've made a LOT of assumptions and got information from a few unreputable sources. This number isn't accurate, but gives a good ballpark figure.

A sea level rise 95.6km would put the water near the Karman Line in the thermosphere (at about the altitude where the aurora takes place). At this altitude, Noah would have a lot more to worry about than flooding. Noah and the cute little animals would have to worry about lack of oxygen and food, a temperature of 1500 degrees Celsius, among very many other things.

Sorry. This theory too is not plausible. To be fair, I said originally that this calculation would be slightly high. In reality, the actual height is probably somewhere between 85 and 90 kilometres (good educated guess). But the problems are still there.

This theory has been debunked.

 

[Vile Atheist]

If anyone cares to double check my figures or offer up better, more accurate numbers, be my guest.

Edit: URAVIP2ME, I invite you to bring all Creationist theories you can find to explain how Noah's flood could have happened and I'll do my best to use actual numbers (sourcing references, as always) to give an approximate answer and explanation of why it isn't possible, just as I've done with the polar ice caps melting and all the land above sea level being plunged into the ocean. I'll even ignore the fact there is no geologic evidence for these theories.

 

[Tiapan]

If anyone cares to double check my figures or offer up better, more accurate numbers, be my guest.

I am sure they are correct CM, roughly any way, but you don't have to go to 90Km to get astronomically large amount of water required.

My earlier post calculations comes up with similar implausible results. Once again when this flood was all over, where did the planetiod size body of water go?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1626992-post155.html

Cheers

 

[Vile Atheist]

I am sure they are correct CM, roughly any way, but you don't have to go to 90Km to get astronomically large amount of water required.

My earlier post calculations comes up with similar implausible results. Once again when this flood was all over, where did the planetiod size body of water go?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1626992-post155.html

Cheers

That was a slightly different theory.

But I have very good reason for asking for double checking and request for better and more accurate numbers because we apparently used different volumes for water on Earth.

You used 1.37 x 10^9 cubic kilometers, according to your post, but that was volume of the OCEANS. I Googled TOTAL volume of water on Earth.

My total volume (in cubic kilometres, for comparison) for all water on Earth*** is 1.35 x 10^12 cubic kilometres.

***Yes, I know a Times of India article isn't the most reputable source, but I'm not going to look through scientific journals to find the most accurate number here. If URAVIP2ME wishes to do that, I'll be happy to recalculate, unless he cares to do the calculations himself, to his own satisfaction.

 

[Tiapan]

That was a slightly different theory.

But I have very good reason for asking for double checking and request for better and more accurate numbers because we apparently used different volumes for water on Earth.

You used 1.37 x 10^9 cubic kilometers, according to your post, but that was volume of the OCEANS. I Googled TOTAL volume of water on Earth.

My total volume (in cubic kilometres, for comparison) for all water on Earth*** is 1.35 x 10^12 cubic kilometres.

***Yes, I know a Times of India article isn't the most reputable source, but I'm not going to look through scientific journals to find the most accurate number here. If URAVIP2ME wishes to do that, I'll be happy to recalculate, unless he cares to do the calculations himself, to his own satisfaction.

No Probs M8 I'll do some research and check. I didn't include ice caps, Although 10^3 difference seems a rather large.

The US Department of Energy quotes ambiguously
Volume of Earth's Water

Ask A Scientist

Environmental Earth Science Archive

The Earth has approximately 1.3 billion cubic kilometers of water, meaning that a sphere with
all of that water in it would have a diameter of 1354 kilometers (841 miles).

Is the "billion" 10^9 normal definition, or 10^12 the supersized US "billion"?
But working back from the sphere diameter (4*PI*R^3)/3 gives 3x10^9 cub kms. ie 10^9 not 10^12

What ever the figures are they are astronomical, even the most simple get the picture, once explained.

Cheers

 

[Vile Atheist]

I triple-checked. I messed up in conversion because I can't read my own writing lol. For the conversion from cubic centimetres into cubic metres, my 10^6 looked like 10^3. That would be the source of the 10^3 difference. So the numbers are accurate. I'll go over my original calculations to ensure I didn't use that number.

Edit: Nope, we're good.

 

[skydivephil]

But there is no reason for the Sun to melt all the ice on earth in 40 days/nights.
According to Genesis the globe was warm at that time.
Don't researchers find animals that were flash frozen at the ice caps?

What if the mountainous areas of the earth were at a lower level at the time before the Deluge started? Lower in height would mean mountains could be covered with a lower water level.

If today all the land was made level by dumping the excess in the oceans how high would the water level rise on earth?

There is no evidence for a world wide flood, so if you ask us what if the mountains were lower, you might want to tell us when this is supposed to have happned. Some mountains were lower in the past than today, but that depends how much earlier you are talking. Why dont you tell us when this "deluge" is supposed to have happened and we can address your question. You might want to add some evidence for your date.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There is no evidence for a world wide flood, so if you ask us what if the mountains were lower, you might want to tell us when this is supposed to have happned. Some mountains were lower in the past than today, but that depends how much earlier you are talking. Why dont you tell us when this "deluge" is supposed to have happened and we can address your question. You might want to add some evidence for your date.

A literal interpretation yields a date somewhere between 2300 to 2500 BC. But this does not mesh with civilizations that existed before, during and after this time with no interruption in their historical time line due to a supposed deluge.