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Question Everything
Studying nature has a purpose. It helps us to understand ourselves better to know what commonalities we may share with the rest of the animal kingdom, and which things we do differently.

I agree, and I love (mostly) nature.

The "natural man" concept within the scriptures is in regards to fighting against some of our natural urges - such as being selfish, lazy, gluttonous, promiscuous, etc. etc. I'm sure everyone here would agree that natural does not equate to good, and that there are many animal behaviors that would be better if humans did not participate in...

 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The tax-exempt status of church organizations (like our own) is currently being questioned...
As it should be. I think it's wrong to assume that just because an organization is religious, it should automatically be considered charitable. Don't you?

FYI: religious beliefs expressed in good faith are exempt from Canadian hate speech laws.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I agree, and I love (mostly) nature.

The "natural man" concept within the scriptures is in regards to fighting against some of our natural urges - such as being selfish, lazy, gluttonous, promiscuous, etc. etc. I'm sure everyone here would agree that natural does not equate to good, and that there are many animal behaviors that would be better if humans did not participate in...

I wonder about a god who demands we fight against our nature to love. Actually, I wonder why any deity should be concerned with how and how often we have sex. Seems quite petty. Not to mention that when mortals engage in similar behavior, we call them interesting things like "voyeur". LOL
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
This argument has always confused me. Just because something happens in nature, does not mean it is good. In nature, animals kill one another, steal from one another, etc. etc. ... "the natural man is an enemy to God"...

There are several legitimate arguments for homosexuality, but "it's fine because it's natural" is not one of them.

Um, they were addressing the claim that it's unnatural, thus bad.

If something were bad because it was unnatural, then marriage, prayer, medicine, eye glasses, technology, etc. are bad because they don't occur in nature.

If you don't like the natural = good argument, then stop using the unnatural = bad argument.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There are laws against monopolies - there will always be more than one bakery, more than one photographer, more than one flower shop, more than one building to get married in etc. etc. Why would anyone go out of their way to target a business which does not specialize in a particular set of services, instead of supporting the other organizations that would gladly cater to what is needed?

To the fanatics, it's not about the wedding cake/flowers/pictures etc. ... it appears to be a matter of hunting down those with different beliefs, and trying to force business owners to go against the dictates of their own conscience.
I live in a fairly small town (~30,000 people) and I happen to be planning a wedding right now. For any particular wedding size, there's probably at most 2 venues with the right capacity. If you want to do things outdoors under a tent, there's only 1 tent rental place. Caterers don't generally have fancy dishes; if you aren't having your wedding at the one hall that has a "package deal" (they do the venue, dinner, dishes, wait staff, bar service, furniture, linens, etc... but only for their own events), there's only 1 place that will rent fancy wedding-appropriate dishes.

If you narrow it down by reasonable requirements (e.g. to only ones available on a particular date), you typically end up with one company (or no companies) to use.

Natural monopolies aren't illegal. It's only illegal to artificially stifle your competition. If your town is only big enough to support one *whatever*, that's just how it is.

Even when you have several options, people tend to narrow down on one specific one for normal, reasonable reasons. For instance, my fiancee picked our cake supplier because she's had lots of good experience with them doing birthday cakes and the like.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
If everyone turned homosexual the human race would eventually come to an end. Homosexuality is against God and if you don't believe in God it's still against nature. If you really what to start thinking right and begin to understand what going on around you you need to allow God to take you out of the kingdom of darkness and put you in the kingdom of His Son.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
All this blather and you did not address a thing I said. Where does Christ speak about homosexuality. He doesn't. Yet you parrot the homophobic fear that has become the totem of your faith, which, btw, is not at all what Christ taught. And of course, who can forget...the verse you quote is from Paul. A man who never knew Christ and whose writings indicate he did not have the first idea of what Christ taught either.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Since same sex marriage is legal they have now introduced into the public school system oral and anal sex education classes. What are your thoughts on this?

Here is what God says, just in case you're wondering.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Those were Paul's words, not Jesus' or God's. Paul claimed to have gotten his "authority" through a "vision" of Jesus on the road to Damascus that left him trembling and was not seen by his fellow travelers. I feel that it is reasonable to take Paul's words with a grain of salt for this reason. He merely claimed to speak for God, and expected everyone to just take his word for it. I'm not buying into it though.

Do we have any record of what Jesus thought of this subject?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
This begs the question of whether we think that, when planning a wedding, any of us consider the feelings of those whose service we hire? Or do we simply assume that they are in that service industry to provide a service? It never occurred to me to ask the florist or caterer for my wedding their thoughts on atheists. I simply assumed the caterer wished to sell me food to feed my guests, and that the florist's primary concern was the flower arrangements.
Excellent point. I really wonder, who in the world asks a photographer what faith they are?? Similarly, if a gay couple goes to a particular photographer and his or her morals cause them to refuse service, who flipping cares?? Find another who really wants the money.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Sin destroys life so those who choose sin cannot exist in God's kingdom. Those who call sin what it is and resist it because it is sin will be in the kingdom of God no matter how many times they fall in this life. Those who defeat ISIS will also look unloving to those who don't know ISIS. Cancer kills life so it must be destroyed at all cost lest it destroys life. We don't know the depth of sin in man's heart nor the battle that God has in dealing with it. We do know that in the end, when all the smoke clears, the character of God will stand vindicated.
What exactly is 'sin' and who gets to decide if I am sinning or not? You? I think not. I live a moral life without breaking a single one of your bloody commandments. So in essence, I am not sinning. Unless one states that I must believe in Jesus and if I don't, I then am sinning. That is threat, plain and simple.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
This argument has always confused me. Just because something happens in nature, does not mean it is good. In nature, animals kill one another, steal from one another, etc. etc. ... "the natural man is an enemy to God"...

There are several legitimate arguments for homosexuality, but "it's fine because it's natural" is not one of them.

Men kill one another. And steal from each other. Your point please?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Those were Paul's words, not Jesus' or God's. Paul claimed to have gotten his "authority" through a "vision" of Jesus on the road to Damascus that left him trembling and was not seen by his fellow travelers. I feel that it is reasonable to take Paul's words with a grain of salt for this reason. He merely claimed to speak for God, and expected everyone to just take his word for it. I'm not buying into it though.

Do we have any record of what Jesus thought of this subject?
I should have known my love, that you would say pretty much what I did without reading a head. Sorry about that. But for the record, you speak for me.
 

idea

Question Everything
As it should be. I think it's wrong to assume that just because an organization is religious, it should automatically be considered charitable. Don't you?

I agree. Hopefully all religious groups will not be lumped together.

FYI: religious beliefs expressed in good faith are exempt from Canadian hate speech laws.

and yet Canadian priests have been put in jail for what they have said...

I wonder about a god who demands we fight against our nature to love. Actually, I wonder why any deity should be concerned with how and how often we have sex. Seems quite petty. Not to mention that when mortals engage in similar behavior, we call them interesting things like "voyeur". LOL

Those who understand the beauty of loyalty, and of monogamous "one and only" relationships understand the commandments against things like adultery.

Um, they were addressing the claim that it's unnatural, thus bad.

If something were bad because it was unnatural, then marriage, prayer, medicine, eye glasses, technology, etc. are bad because they don't occur in nature.

If you don't like the natural = good argument, then stop using the unnatural = bad argument.

I have never used the natural = good or natural = bad argument. I was just pointing out that nature can go either way. Saying something is "natural" neither makes it good or bad.

I live in a fairly small town (~30,000 people) and I happen to be planning a wedding right now.

Best wishes for your wedding. We did our wedding ourself - made our own cakes (had a huge cake bar with all different varieties), had a family member take picts, etc.... come to think of it, the most fun weddings I have been to (Renaissance themed, cartoon themed, the great outdoors themed) did not hire anyone.

Men kill one another. And steal from each other. Your point please?

Exactly, Natural "animal" behavior is not always good. Murder is not justified by saying "it's natural, animals do it, so it should be fine" etc...
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Those who understand the beauty of loyalty, and of monogamous "one and only" relationships understand the commandments against things like adultery.
That has to be the sweetest thing I've ever heard. Personally I rather enjoy my own moral agency. I "get" that sometimes people grow apart and that there's no rational reason we should have to suffer each other's continued existence in our lives, effectively creating a perpetual state of misery, just because some mythical being might get pissy with us for divorcing.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I agree. Hopefully all religious groups will not be lumped together.



and yet Canadian priests have been put in jail for what they have said...



Those who understand the beauty of loyalty, and of monogamous "one and only" relationships understand the commandments against things like adultery.



I have never used the natural = good or natural = bad argument. I was just pointing out that nature can go either way. Saying something is "natural" neither makes it good or bad.



Best wishes for your wedding. We did our wedding ourself - made our own cakes (had a huge cake bar with all different varieties), had a family member take picts, etc.... come to think of it, the most fun weddings I have been to (Renaissance themed, cartoon themed, the great outdoors themed) did not hire anyone.



Exactly, Natural "animal" behavior is not always good. Murder is not justified by saying "it's natural, animals do it, so it should be fine" etc...
You have to admit that divorce is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in many circumstances, right?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member

Men kill one another. And steal from each other. Your point please?
Exactly, Natural "animal" behavior is not always good. Murder is not justified by saying "it's natural, animals do it, so it should be fine" etc...

John 8:32

My point was that murder of other people has been with us since time began. As has stealing and....wait for it....

Homosexuality. The first two are not good, necessarily but may have been a way of imparting a lesson. The third, OTOH, is as natural as breathing to those of us who are either TG or gay or Bi or anything thing. I did not choose my sexuality. It is who and what I am. And it is because of homophobic bigots under the guise of your 'christian love', that my partner is dead. So, as politely as I can say this...stow your pious bull merde.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
You have to admit that divorce is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in many circumstances, right?
Thank you dear. My husband and I use the word loosely, put me in the ICU not once but twice. I had bruises constantly for no damn reason whatsoever than he had a hair across his fat arse. Divorce was the only kind thing that ******* agreed to with me.
 

k4c

Member
All this blather and you did not address a thing I said. Where does Christ speak about homosexuality. He doesn't. Yet you parrot the homophobic fear that has become the totem of your faith, which, btw, is not at all what Christ taught. And of course, who can forget...the verse you quote is from Paul. A man who never knew Christ and whose writings indicate he did not have the first idea of what Christ taught either.

The entire bible speaks against practicing homosexuallity.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
You see, you assumed that I was reciting events that took place in my family, in front of me, in order to discredit you. You assumed that while I'm talking about me, it's really all about you. How arrogant is that, actually?

When you attack my brothers, you attack me. Just as Jesus said....what you do to his brothers, you do to him.
Why are you surprised that I would defend them?

What you insinuated was that all JW's are reflected in your family's particular experience. As I said...who can make a judgment with one (biased) side of a story? The internet is full of them. All vitriolic and full of malice and hate. Do you know why? They have nowhere else to go.
It's like an unripe piece of fruit...it comes to maturity and if it is not used at its best, and it is taken out of the bowl, it doesn't go back to being green...it just goes bad. Jesus said we would identify his true disciples "by their fruits"...bad fruit is hardly an acceptable offering to God. Can any human organization be entirely free of bad examples? Only in a perfect world....so let's not pretend that all of Jehovah's Witnesses are reflected in your biased account of your personal story...OK?

The obvious insinuation you're making is that no person who's ever had a bad experience with JW's can ever speak of that experience because somehow, that's going to be all about YOU.

Sorry Marisa but you don't seem to be able to rise above your own prejudice. Bad things happen to everyone. We never claimed to be perfect. Do you know of any human organization on earth who does not have experience with a few bad apples? I refer to Judas again. The son of God chose him as an apostle, yet at some point, he failed to remain disciplined and fell to greed for material gain. He'd had his hand in the money box for some time. No one is immune to sin.

Ironically, in taking this tact, you rather do confirm some of the things that I've commented about MY experience with the JW's in MY family as applying rather more broadly. So, thanks for that!

But then, you are looking for ways to reinforce and feed your intense dislike for JW's. That is what comes across in your comments.
There are many on these forums who seem "hell" bent on bad-mouthing one of the most peaceful and happy people on earth. As a collective, we do so much better in life than the majority of those who call themselves "Christians" because we actually try very hard to live up to ALL the teachings of Jesus Christ...including the inconvenient parts. You won't find jails full of JW criminals, we don't go to war, we don't meddle in politics, we don't lie or steal, we try hard to keep our marriages together with love and forgiveness and we try to raise well adjusted and balanced children in a world that seeks to corrupt every human sensibility. None of us do it perfectly however. Some mess up big time and incur sometimes painful discipline. We make no apology for that....but at the same time, we cannot bring accusations against brothers without proof and witnesses. It is a fair system but a judicial one based on Jehovah's laws. We wouldn't have it any other way.

If your experience has been unpleasant...I'm sorry to say, you are not alone.....but telling one side of a story that is designed to malign the entire brotherhood is not being truthful.

I have lived and worked with these people for over 40 years and even though none of my brothers is any more perfect than I am, they try harder than any other people on earth to live a Christian life and follow God's rules for living in this world. (1John 2:15-17: 5:19)
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
This argument has always confused me. Just because something happens in nature, does not mean it is good. In nature, animals kill one another, steal from one another, etc. etc. ... "the natural man is an enemy to God"...

There are several legitimate arguments for homosexuality, but "it's fine because it's natural" is not one of them.
I was not arguing that it was right or moral. I was responding to the allegation that it was unnatural. Which it is not. Natural does not always equal good and unnatural does not always equal bad. Things occurring in nature does always equal natural though.

I have noticed though whenever someone responds with no it is natural in a debate about homosexuality the goal posts are immediately moved to morality all of a sudden. That's what confuses me!
 
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