Obama couldn't govern himself out of a wet paper bag

[Magic Man]

Yes it is real Luis. Family farms many times must be sold to pay the "estate tax".

Still going to ignore the facts I've presented? Shocking, Rick. Well, at least I tried to get you to be honest.

Many family farms have hundreds of acres. To support one cow, you would need several acres of land. A herd of 200 cattle could need a 500 acre farm which could be appraised at over 10,000 per acre. That would be 5 million dollars for instance.

Can you support these numbers?

The income from a farm like this could be as low as 100,000 a year and that would have to support several families, perhaps two brothers and their parents. That would be 33,000 per household. Even if you double this example, their "estate tax" would be 2.75 million. Yes these people on paper are millionaires, but their life style and income would not reflect this.

Can you support these numbers? Going with a farm that's worth $5 million, it's hard to imagine them making that little off of it. Also going with that example, the estate tax under the guidelines last year when it was in place would mean that farm estate would be taxed at 45% on $1.5 million. That means the estate tax owed would be $675,000. Still a good chunk of money, but for such a huge, that shouldn't be too big a deal.

I'll try another passage from the link I gave you before, even though I'm sure you'll just ignore it, preferring to keep on believing the lies you do currently.

Proponents of further weakening the estate tax often claim that it causes small businesses and farms to be liquidated. This claim is groundless.

In 2001, the American Farm Bureau Federation acknowledged to the New York Times that it could not cite a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay estate taxes, and this was before the estate tax exemption level was more than tripled and the top rate was reduced. [5]

More recently, a Congressional Budget Office study found that of the very few farm estates that would owe any tax under the 2009 parameters, all but a handful would have sufficient liquid assets on hand (such as bank accounts, stocks, and bonds) to pay the tax without having to touch the farm or business.[6] And CBO further explained that it may have overestimated the number of small businesses and farm estates with possible liquidity constraints because it was unable to include certain assets held in trusts (such as life insurance trusts) in calculating the liquid assets available to help pay the tax.[7]

I emboldened and underlined the most important part.

Their attitude is, they work the land not own it. They are the stewards of the land till they pass the family farm down to the next generation. They hardly live a luxurious lifestyle.A family who has worked hard every day for generations who pay their property tax, income tax, social security, state tax, local tax, sales tax and barely get by would hardly agree with you that their farm is a privilege. Their great great grandfather cleared the land before the government even existed. They fought Indians, dealt with dishonest bankers, endured harsh weather and faced poverty to keep those farms.

It's not a privilege to keep their land, the government is privileged to have collected all the taxes they paid for hundreds of years.

That's why even with the generous numbers they use for the estate tax, there are also a lot of exemptions for farms and small businesses so that their exemptions go even higher than the usual ones. In 2009, when the normal exemption level was $3.5 million, for farms and small businesses it was more like $4.5 million. Taking that into account and using your completely made-up and inaccurate example of the $5 million farm, that means they'd only owe about $225,000 on a $5 million estate.

But I do thank you for one thing, Rick. I thank you for using "estate tax". That's a big step in the right direction.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm sorry, no one in America is starving to death.

I'm sorry, but that's completely incorrect. Try again.

 

[waitasec]

This is my point, if you are truly poor, why are you eating out? Food stamps are not redeemable at McDonalds. Spending money on fast food is wasteful when you can prepare a better meal at home cheaper. Another issue is, why are you out and about at McDonalds when you are so poor? People who "cannot afford to feed themselves" are wasting gasoline in a drive thru.

here in los angeles there is a plethora of over weight people living in urban areas where only fast food restaurants are around in the name of capitalism. no small groceries stores where you can buy fresh fruits and veggies feeding into a culture of, i have 2 jobs and i have children to feed, i have no time to cook. can you see that?

we eat at home and eat out on special occasions. we can do that because we work from home. however if we had to work else where it would be nearly impossible.

I'm sorry, no one in America is starving to death.

i suggest doing some research before making a statement like that.

 

[Revoltingest]

i suggest doing some research before making a statement like that.

Do you think he's wrong about no one starving in the US?

 

[dust1n]

wikipedia:


most people are unfortunately incapable of self-management and don't take care of publix property. This is why private schools often provide the best educations; private parks are cleaner than public parks. Because when people "own" something they tend to take better care of it.

I would love a perfect socialist country if there were not so many lazy idiots ruining it.

Ah, the first place my mind goes is the charter school in town... the one that used child labor a couple of years back during classes and then falsified reports to keep the children graduating.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ah, the first place my mind goes is the charter school in town... the one that used child labor a couple of years back during classes and then falsified reports to keep the children graduating.

You don't want to trade horror stories about public schools.
One visit to Detroit would cure you of that.

 

[waitasec]

Do you think he's wrong about no one starving in the US?

yes i do.
according to the bread for the world institute 3.5 percent of US households experience hunger. some people in these households frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. 9.6 million people, including 3 million children, live in these homes.

U.S. Hunger - Bread for the World: Have Faith. End Hunger.

 

[Revoltingest]

yes i do.
according to the bread for the world institute 3.5 percent of US households experience hunger. some people in these households frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. 9.6 million people, including 3 million children, live in these homes.

U.S. Hunger - Bread for the World: Have Faith. End Hunger.

Hunger is different from starvation.

 

[waitasec]

Hunger is different from starvation.

semantics really

in any case, since this is one of the most developed and richest countries in the world it's a very sad reality.

 

[Revoltingest]

semantics really

Not to me. I've experienced hunger. It's not starvation by any stretch of a definition. Starvation means injury & possible death.

 

[waitasec]

Not to me. I've experienced hunger. It's not starvation by any stretch of a definition. Starvation means injury & possible death.

but do you think in a country like ours, this is acceptable?

my father experienced hunger in cuba as a child. why is it an accepted form of reality here today?

 

[linwood]

Not to me. I've experienced hunger. It's not starvation by any stretch of a definition. Starvation means injury & possible death.

You`re defending the right to keep people from eating properly in the US?

 

[waitasec]

You`re defending the right to keep people from eating properly in the US?

i don't get it....do you?

it's not even a right, it's a consequence beyond control in most cases.

sure there are a lot of leaches out there, but most of these people are fighting a loosing battle.

i blame capitalism.

 

[dust1n]

You don't want to trade horror stories about public schools.
One visit to Detroit would cure you of that.

Sure don't. I am well aware of the problems within public schools. Thinking charter schools don't have their own problems and contingencies is just foreign to me.

CHARTER SCHOOL SCANDALS

 

[Revoltingest]

You`re defending the right to keep people from eating properly in the US?

What an odd question....are you channeling mball?
I simply point out the fallacy of equating "hunger" with "starvation".
Do you disagree?
A poster made an unsupported statement that no one here is starving.
Another refuted with no support other than to show many people experience hunger.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure don't. I am well aware of the problems within public schools. Thinking charter schools don't have their own problems and contingencies is just foreign to me.
CHARTER SCHOOL SCANDALS

I find schooling to be a complex subject which is often over-simplified.
I've no problem with public schools existing, but I see private schools as beneficial too.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Still going to ignore the facts I've presented? Shocking, Rick. Well, at least I tried to get you to be honest.

Can you support these numbers?

I'm not being dishonest Matt, are you saying no farms have ever been lost to inheritance taxes?

Numbers? Are you implying that all farms are extremely profitable? You always ignore the risk factor when we are talking about investing or farming.

Fuel prices, equipment prices, market prices, and weather are all factors. Some years farmers make nothing at all, other years they do better. They don't operate with a weekly pay check.

We can quibble about numbers all you like, farming and especially small farms are not mega money makers by any stretch of the imagination. To tax them like the Paris Hilton's of the world is just plain wrong.

Anyone with an ounce of reasoning could take one look at their houses, clothes, and vehicles could determine fairly quickly that they are not wealthy. Yes they own land, but they don't think of it as their personal land, it is something that was given to them, but they pass it along to the next generation. They are more like stewards, not actual owners.

It is a shame anyone would want to take this from them. Now if they got out of farming and sold the farm for cash, I would look at this situation in a different light and if you think about it, you should too. Once the family farms are gone, they will never be replaced. It will be a thing of the past.

 

[Troublemane]

Personally, I would like to see a liberal give a straightforward, moral argument for having a progressive income tax system at all. Forget the estate tax. Why have a progressive income tax structure, if not to prevent people from becoming wealthy?

It would be different if it were a wealth tax, on the wealthy. But no, the rich do not make their money through a paycheck. So.....why the progressive tax structure? And how is it morally justifiable?

 

[Troublemane]

It is a shame anyone would want to take this from them. Now if they got out of farming and sold the farm for cash, I would look at this situation in a different light and if you think about it, you should too. Once the family farms are gone, they will never be replaced. It will be a thing of the past.

It happened already in New Jersey. Family farms which had been there since the revolution are gone now.

But, hey, come on Rick, don't you know that the government can use that land more efficiently and effectively than any private person?

 

[Reverend Rick]

but do you think in a country like ours, this is acceptable?

my father experienced hunger in cuba as a child. why is it an accepted form of reality here today?

I find this an interesting statement. I know many former Cubanos, (having lived in Miami) who lived under a socialist communist government who embrace capitalism with all their heart once they became Americans.

These people hold a dear place in my heart. They embrace family values and hard work. They are thriving in Miami and are raising some of the most respectful wonderful children I have ever met.