Obama couldn't govern himself out of a wet paper bag

[Magic Man]

I'm a bottom line guy. One tax rate for everyone, no loopholes. Yes, the poor might get dinged a little, but they would have more entitlements when the rich finally paid their fair share. It would finally be fair if when you voted for tax increases it effected everyone and not just a few.

Aside from not answering the question, this is based on a complete misunderstanding of things.

First, the question was how a flat tax could be progressive? A progressive tax means that the more you make, the higher a percentage you pay, so it seems like that would disqualify a flat tax.

Second, a flat tax is inherently unfair. Paying 20% of $30,000 and 20% of $300,000 might seem fair when views shallowly. However, when viewed correctly it's not. Take away $6,000 from the first person, and they're left with $24,000. That severely cuts into their ability to afford shelter, food and clothing. Take away $60,000 from the second person, and they're left with $240,000. That's still more than enough to afford the basic shelter, food and clothing, along with a couple of cars, an extra house, a boat, etc. It's simply not fair to take the same percentage from each.

I guess I am just old fashioned, I believe in shared sacrifice and fairness.

No, you don't. If you did, you'd believe in a progressive tax, which would actually be fair. Also, why is it the poor and middle class that have to sacrifice? Why doesn't the upper class have to sacrifice, too?

 

[Magic Man]

I'm sorry Phil, but worring about the rich, (believe me, I'm not getting ahead right now) is no different than a bunch of fundies worrying about the orgy going on up the street.

Sorry, but no. That orgy has no effect on anyone else. The economy being directed more and more towards the rich at the expense of the rest of the country gives us things like the recession, the housing bubble, the internet bubble, etc. Wanting a better economy for everyone is the basis of "worrying about the rich".

Also, here's a great article about farms and the estate tax. It's a bit old (from 2001), but back then the rates and exemptions were even lower then more recently. Here are a couple choice tidbits:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Harlyn Riekena worried that his success would cost him when he died. Thirty-seven years ago he quit teaching to farm and over the years bought more and more of the rich black soil here in central Iowa. Now he and his wife, Karen, own 950 gently rolling acres planted in soybeans and corn. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The farmland alone is worth more than $2.5 million, and so Mr. Riekena, 61, fretted that estate taxes would take a big chunk of his three grown daughters' inheritance.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That might seem a reasonable assumption, what with all the talk in Washington about the need to repeal the estate tax to save the family farm. "To keep farms in the family, we are going to get rid of the death tax," President Bush vowed a month ago; he and many others have made the point repeatedly.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] But in fact the Riekenas will owe nothing in estate taxes. Almost no working farmers do, according to data from an Internal Revenue Service analysis of 1999 returns that has not yet been published.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Neil Harl, an Iowa State University economist whose tax advice has made him a household name among Midwest farmers, said he had searched far and wide but had never found a farm lost because of estate taxes. "It's a myth," he said.

[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You can read the rest, too, if you want, but I'm guessing that won't happen.
[/FONT]

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

No soul you say? That is why I provide to a local food bank. These folks get food stamps, but are unable to budget them correctly all month. Our food bank gives to all that ask. We go through alot of food the last week of the month. Some folks are unable to even come to the food bank. We have a program called "backpacks for kids" We pass them out at school.

First off, good for you. I wish more Americans did this. Sadly, though, charity does not begin to approach the level of support required for the poor. And why exactly do you think that some of them are "unable to budget" their food stamps? Why does our system not give them those skills? At what point does personal responsibility end and societal responsibility begin?

People are not having trouble finding food, they are spending their food money on non necessities IMHO. I support a battered women's shelter as well. Another project of mine is helping folks with their electric bills during Winter.

Again, good. But do you have proof that they are wasting our money?

What kind of a Nation are we? I say we are kind and generous to a fault.

Americans don't need more help, look at Haiti, those people need help.

Kind and generous to a fault, you say? Then why are we the least generous per capita of all the wealth nations in terms of giving foreign aid?

Hunger is different from starvation.

What the HELL?

Personally, I would like to see a liberal give a straightforward, moral argument for having a progressive income tax system at all. Forget the estate tax. Why have a progressive income tax structure, if not to prevent people from becoming wealthy?

It would be different if it were a wealth tax, on the wealthy. But no, the rich do not make their money through a paycheck. So.....why the progressive tax structure? And how is it morally justifiable?

Well, let's take ultimate regressive tax: Everyone pays a flat $10,000 tax. Sound fair? Why not?

 

[Revoltingest]

What the HELL?

Does your exasperation mean that you refute my contention that hunger is not equivalent to starvation?

 

[linwood]

How much research is there in buying groceries & hardware?

You`d be amazed at the research my wife does just for groceries.

Don`t even get me started on back to school clothing and supplies.

 

[Revoltingest]

You`d be amazed at the research my wife does just for groceries.
Don`t even get me started on back to school clothing and supplies.

I'm told that this research is very expensive, & only an option for the wealthy. How does she cope?

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm told that this research is very expensive, & only an option for the wealthy. How does she cope?

Are you? I seem to recall having told you that wealth translates into having more options. I don't know how things are up there in Revoltingstan, but here in Brazil poor people simply can't afford to seek for better prices. Often enough they don't even have enough time to try, and would lack the physical capability for taking advantage of those prices anyway.

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you? I seem to recall having told you that wealth translates into having more options. I don't know how things are up there in Revoltingstan, but here in Brazil poor people simply can't afford to seek for better prices. Often enough they don't even have enough time to try, and would lack the physical capability for taking advantage of those prices anyway.

Things are very different in Revoltistan. Certainly though, shopping options in poorer areas
aren't as great as elsewhere. I get the impression that things are far worse in Brazil.

 

[linwood]

I live in an upper middle class neighborhood on the beautiful gulf coast of Florida.
In a suburb less than ten minutes from a modern city steeped in lavish culture.

I can drive twenty minutes south of here and take a photo of a place, send you that photo and when you opened that attachment the first thing that would come to your mind would be Somalia or Haiti.

Rusted trailers sitting on crumbling blocks, dirty children in ragged clothes running in the dirt streets chasing mangy dogs around piles of garbage buzzing with insects, not a car to be seen anywhere.

It exists, it`s here in this shining city on a hill.
Most of us never see it though, I lived in this modern city I speak of for thirty years before I ever discovered this poverty stricken place just a few miles down the road hidden off an access to I-75.

It was an eye opener.

 

[Kathryn]

The president of "Bread For the World" makes $170,000 a year from the organization and it's affiliates.

Charity Navigator Rating - Bread for the World Institute

I just thought that was interesting.

 

[linwood]

The president of "Bread For the World" makes $170,000 a year from the organization and it's affiliates.

Charity Navigator Rating - Bread for the World Institute

I just thought that was interesting.

That is interesting.
Yet another charity that won`t be receiving my aid.

Thank you.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is interesting.
Yet another charity that won`t be receiving my aid.
Thank you.

Really...a charity which pays slave wages to it's CEO!

 

[Kathryn]

The CEO of Holt Adoption Services makes $24,000 a year. Same source. That's an interesting site by the way.

Charity Navigator Rating - Holt International Children's Services

 

[linwood]

Really...a charity which pays slave wages to it's CEO!

You really do need to get a better grasp of what poverty is Revolting.

$170k is hardly slave wages.

 

[Revoltingest]

The CEO of Holt Adoption Services makes $24,000 a year. Same source. That's an interesting site by the way.

Charity Navigator Rating - Holt International Children's Services

A friend of mine is thinking of working for a local art organization.
He has to pay them for the privilege.

 

[Reverend Rick]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You can read the rest, too, if you want, but I'm guessing that won't happen.[/FONT]

I think we can give this debate a rest, Obama just signed the bill into law yesterday.

 

[Revoltingest]

You really do need to get a better grasp of what poverty is Revolting.
$170k is hardly slave wages.

Whuh? The man is a pauper.

 

[Magic Man]

I think we can give this debate a rest, Obama just signed the bill into law yesterday.

Why can we give it a rest? I thought we were discussing the fact that it's a myth that family farms have to be sold to pay the estate tax. Have you finally admitted that that argument against the estate tax is invalid? Especially when you consider the insane numbers of the new estate tax. 35% with an exemption level of $5 million? Even before the idea that farms and small family businesses had to be sold to pay the tax was incorrect, but with these new numbers which are more lenient than all previous years completely ends any chance of believing that argument to be realistic.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Why can we give it a rest?

I'm sorry mball, the President signed the bill. It's time to discuss other issues now like the start treaty or DADT.

Here is a youtube video you might like.


[youtube]X-Vo4GstkLk[/youtube]
YouTube - Barack Obama Press Conference 01

 

[Seabear]

I'm sorry if this has been posted already, but to all those ******** about the extending of the Bush Tax cuts Obama did it so the Republicans would allow him to pass a START, and IMO a reduction of nuclear arms takes president over tax cuts. But I do agree, unfortunately Democrats have no backbones and wont force anything on the Republicans. We need another Andrew Jackson.