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October 7, 2024 - Meditation on One Year Anniversary of October 7 Massacre

jbg

Active Member
One year ago today, Hamas conducted an utterly brutal attack against partiers at an Israeli rock festival. What has happened, both in the West and in Israel is indescribable.

Developments in Israel - Israel's initial response was demonstrably unprepared. Somehow, the major portions of the leadership of Hamas escaped. Because Hamas managed to create a "Gaza under Gaza" Israel had no way to respond without causing massive civilian casualties. Hamas placed its military facilities in tunnels underneath schools, hospitals and other civilian uses. Israel simply could not respond without massive destruction of civilian facilities and without increasing already desperate suffering.

After a halting start, Israel's response has become much better. In many ways, what has happened since the beginning of August is a model for what should have happened to begin with. First, major Hamas leaders were killed in safe houses in Iran. Iran and Hamas were badly humiliated by the Israeli response, which has been effective.

Even better has been the recent attacks on Hezbollah in Lebanon. Those attacks were sequential. First, though Israel has not claimed credit, were the pager explosions. The next day, walkie talkies blew up. Nazrallah Met his deserved fate days later, as did much of Hezbollah's leadership.

Western Reaction - The West's response, ranging from university campuses to governments has been horrific. At one time the West was not shy about designating itself as the "civilized world" and others as "savages." Even the New York Times regularly described Arab attackers as “marauders.” Now, for whatever reason, we dignify savages as “militants.” We criticize Israel for “disproportionate” responses to activity which at one time would have been unacceptable. Somehow, murdering 1200 innocent civilians and grabbing hostages and committing rape is an acceptable tactic. Students yelling “from the river to the sea” are advocating Hitlerian murder. No one calls them out on this. They are attending school on their parents' dime or more likely on subsidized student aid while constructing encampments and destroying university life. University professors express "exhilaration." University presidents testify in Congress that whether antisemitic violence violence violates university codes of conduct depends on the "context."

Somehow, we are squeamish about treating these people as criminals. If we arrest them, we are releasing them without charges. Alvin Bragg dismissed virtually all the charges against the Vandals and other criminals.

Lessons from October 7 - What October 7th shows is that we have totally lost our nerve To defend and protect civilization. We applaud murder. We condemn Israel's efforts to ensure that “never again” has meaning.

For more:

See Bari Weiss: A Year of Revelations (link) for another excellent discussion.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
One year ago today, Hamas conducted an utterly brutal attack against partiers at an Israeli rock festival. What has happened, both in the West and in Israel is indescribable.

Developments in Israel - Israel's initial response was demonstrably unprepared. Somehow, the major portions of the leadership of Hamas escaped. Because Hamas managed to create a "Gaza under Gaza" Israel had no way to respond without causing massive civilian casualties. Hamas placed its military facilities in tunnels underneath schools, hospitals and other civilian uses. Israel simply could not respond without massive destruction of civilian facilities and without increasing already desperate suffering.

After a halting start, Israel's response has become much better. In many ways, what has happened since the beginning of August is a model for what should have happened to begin with. First, major Hamas leaders were killed in safe houses in Iran. Iran and Hamas were badly humiliated by the Israeli response, which has been effective.

Even better has been the recent attacks on Hezbollah in Lebanon. Those attacks were sequential. First, though Israel has not claimed credit, were the pager explosions. The next day, walkie talkies blew up. Nazrallah Met his deserved fate days later, as did much of Hezbollah's leadership.

Western Reaction - The West's response, ranging from university campuses to governments has been horrific. At one time the West was not shy about designating itself as the "civilized world" and others as "savages." Even the New York Times regularly described Arab attackers as “marauders.” Now, for whatever reason, we dignify savages as “militants.” We criticize Israel for “disproportionate” responses to activity which at one time would have been unacceptable. Somehow, murdering 1200 innocent civilians and grabbing hostages and committing rape is an acceptable tactic. Students yelling “from the river to the sea” are advocating Hitlerian murder. No one calls them out on this. They are attending school on their parents' dime or more likely on subsidized student aid while constructing encampments and destroying university life. University professors express "exhilaration." University presidents testify in Congress that whether antisemitic violence violence violates university codes of conduct depends on the "context."

Somehow, we are squeamish about treating these people as criminals. If we arrest them, we are releasing them without charges. Alvin Bragg dismissed virtually all the charges against the Vandals and other criminals.

Lessons from October 7 - What October 7th shows is that we have totally lost our nerve To defend and protect civilization. We applaud murder. We condemn Israel's efforts to ensure that “never again” has meaning.

For more:

See Bari Weiss: A Year of Revelations (link) for another excellent discussion.
That's certainly a... creative take on what happened over the past year.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
At one time the West was not shy about designating itself as the "civilized world" and others as "savages."

I'm not sure what point you meant to make by bringing up the abovementioned attitude. Do you think that is a healthy or reasonable attitude for the West (or anyone) to have?

Lessons from October 7 - What October 7th shows is that we have totally lost our nerve To defend and protect civilization. We applaud murder. We condemn Israel's efforts to ensure that “never again” has meaning.

If a response that has led to more than 40,000 deaths and over twice as many injuries is indicative of "losing nerve," I hope I never have to see what "having nerve" would be like by that standard.

Yes, unfortunately and reprehensibly, many people applaud murder—and few do it as brazenly and committedly as the governments of Western powers, especially the US government.

By the way, does explicit opposition to warning civilians before striking residential areas count as "applauding murder"?
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Israel is doing the right thing by standing up to terrorists who have wanted Israel gone for a long time. Rather than the Arabs welcoming the Jews and sharing a sliver of their land after the Holocaust with compassion they’ve chosen to stay bitter and full of hatred. It’s sad that so many civilians have to die but the terrorists hide behind civilians. So it’s not Israel that’s committing genocide, it’s in fact Hamas. Most of the west supports this reality.
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
One year ago today, Hamas conducted an utterly brutal attack against partiers at an Israeli rock festival. What has happened, both in the West and in Israel is indescribable.

Developments in Israel - Israel's initial response was demonstrably unprepared. Somehow, the major portions of the leadership of Hamas escaped. Because Hamas managed to create a "Gaza under Gaza" Israel had no way to respond without causing massive civilian casualties. Hamas placed its military facilities in tunnels underneath schools, hospitals and other civilian uses. Israel simply could not respond without massive destruction of civilian facilities and without increasing already desperate suffering.

After a halting start, Israel's response has become much better. In many ways, what has happened since the beginning of August is a model for what should have happened to begin with. First, major Hamas leaders were killed in safe houses in Iran. Iran and Hamas were badly humiliated by the Israeli response, which has been effective.

Even better has been the recent attacks on Hezbollah in Lebanon. Those attacks were sequential. First, though Israel has not claimed credit, were the pager explosions. The next day, walkie talkies blew up. Nazrallah Met his deserved fate days later, as did much of Hezbollah's leadership.

Western Reaction - The West's response, ranging from university campuses to governments has been horrific. At one time the West was not shy about designating itself as the "civilized world" and others as "savages." Even the New York Times regularly described Arab attackers as “marauders.” Now, for whatever reason, we dignify savages as “militants.” We criticize Israel for “disproportionate” responses to activity which at one time would have been unacceptable. Somehow, murdering 1200 innocent civilians and grabbing hostages and committing rape is an acceptable tactic. Students yelling “from the river to the sea” are advocating Hitlerian murder. No one calls them out on this. They are attending school on their parents' dime or more likely on subsidized student aid while constructing encampments and destroying university life. University professors express "exhilaration." University presidents testify in Congress that whether antisemitic violence violence violates university codes of conduct depends on the "context."

Somehow, we are squeamish about treating these people as criminals. If we arrest them, we are releasing them without charges. Alvin Bragg dismissed virtually all the charges against the Vandals and other criminals.

Lessons from October 7 - What October 7th shows is that we have totally lost our nerve To defend and protect civilization. We applaud murder. We condemn Israel's efforts to ensure that “never again” has meaning.

For more:

See Bari Weiss: A Year of Revelations (link) for another excellent discussion.
When the IRA terrorists were carrying out their bombing campaign of the UK, would it have been ok for the UK to bomb Northern Ireland and kill thousands of civilians, bomb schools and hospitals because IRA Terrorists are hiding there?
Asking for a friend.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
When the IRA terrorists were carrying out their bombing campaign of the UK, would it have been ok for the UK to bomb Northern Ireland and kill thousands of civilians, bomb schools and hospitals because IRA Terrorists are hiding there?
Asking for a friend.
When terrorists hide behind civilians it is the terrorists that are in fact killing the civilians.

What about the Nazis. What if they had hid behind civilians and were still bringing Jewish people to the gas chamber. Should we just standby and watch it happen?

So let me get this straight. According to you Terrorists can terrorize anybody they want and hide behind civilians and no one can touch them?
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
When terrorists hide behind civilians it is the terrorists that are in fact killing the civilians.

What about the Nazis. What if they had hid behind civilians and were still bringing Jewish people to the gas chamber. Should we just standby and watch it happen?

So let me get this straight. According to you Terrorists can terrorize anybody they want and hide behind civilians and no one can touch them?
I think you are incorrect; the 'rules of war' do not allow you to indiscriminately kill civilians
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Western Reaction - The West's response, ranging from university campuses to governments has been horrific.
While I don't think that a response that includes an ad hominem (savages) is useful, as I think that tends toward being escalatory, I don't think the West's left-wing has the correct idea. For any of the left's ideas to work (a little better), they would indeed have to be far more exportable than they actually are, or easily are. Proof needs to be put forward, that all countries have an equal agreement on the value of left-wing ideas and practices. Which countries are the most open to immigration for example, despite internal criticism? Western ones, right? How about any other left-wing value, like gay marriage etc.. well we still lead in that, right?

I'm not saying that western countries don't have major flaws , but esteem for left-wing values are probably not equal across the board. A claim can be made that 'we're working on that,' but I don't actually think they really are. Unless someone can provide evidence. Because ultimately, it seems as though they mainly criticize the very entity that allows them to have the values they have

And I think that for left-wing type criticism to be more valid, in the context of population types among other things, there needs to be a more equal distribution of different groups across a spectrum of countries, where supposed left-wing criticism would take place. But there are not laboratory conditions as such, and perhaps there won't be. In the Middle-East, it looks like there is a majority/minority situation at play, and the Jews have less population than everyone else. However, in Western countries, effort is made, often by the left, to try to help populations that have a smaller population size

I don't exactly want to give any definitive opinions on what should happen in the Middle-East, because maybe it shouldn't be my business, but one wonders if the Left-wing here (in the West) has a rather non-intuitive way of seeing it, given what their values seem to be
 
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Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Oh, they are darlings, that makes it ok .... not
War is ugly. So if the Nazis hid behind civilians and continued to gas Jewish citizens it would’ve been wrong to try to stop them? You probably won’t answer this though because somewhere deep down you know I’m right
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
War is ugly. So if the Nazis hid behind civilians and continued to gas Jewish citizens it would’ve been wrong to try to stop them? You probably won’t answer this though because somewhere deep down you know I’m right
I see you ignored the second half of my response!
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Terrorists murdered 1200 civilians on Oct 7.
And yet people support hamas and what they did. Did I miss something? Has the world gone goofy?
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
All the preceding history of Israel
oppressing Palestinians.
Of course I know this will be met
with total denial. But I persist.
Oppressing people that want to annihilate you? Makes sense to me. Oh, and why didn’t all the surrounding Arab nations help their oppressed fellow Arab over the years?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Terrorists murdered 1200 civilians on Oct 7.
..or so it is claimed by Netanyahu and co.

Yes, it is a fact that a "military operation" was carried out by Hamas, and civilians were killed.
How many were killed by "monsters", and how many killed by IDF policy, we don't rightly know.

We do know that Netanyahu and co. invited the press a few days later to see the evidence.
..and we do know that they disallow press in the occupied territories.

It's a war of disinformation. Who knows, the lapse of security could have even been intentional. :expressionless:
 
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