Ok Women, You Have Gotten Your Wish

[esmith]

That's just not good enough because the vast majority of women do not understand the risk .TV ads for the army, in the UK and the US are very attractive, it's all about traveling the world, having an adventure, seeing cool things, meeting cool people, earning money etc etc etc. Heck ,war isn't even mentioned, let alone sexual abuse and this is the deception.

Hardly anyone I have met, male or female, has any clue what goes on in the armed force s and sadly, these armed forces pick on the weak, the destitute, the desperate and the poor. From what I've seen, read and heard, it's even worse in the US when it comes to recruitment.

The less educated, poor, or desperate an individual is, the less likely he/she will be interested in digging deeper into where they are going to work.
It's a deception and women are being trapped in the center of it, with feminists telling them "go for it", every bit as involved in the deception as the generals, politicians and ad makers.

I guess this brings us onto the greater debate of where feminism has gone wrong in recent years but that's a very different topic.

So, I guess I was a weak, destitute, desperate, and poor when I joined the service in 1961 and over 20 years later could look back at a profession that I was and still proud to say I served in. I would say something to you but then I would get dinged by the moderators.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

So, I guess I was a weak, destitute, desperate, and poor when I joined the service in 1961 and over 20 years later could look back at a profession that I was and still proud to say I served in. I would say something to you but then I would get dinged by the moderators.

I didn't say all members of the armed forces are from such backgrounds, but stats prove my case when I say most are.

I'm also glad you were not abused in the armed forces, that's great but that isn't the case for everyone, especially women.

You can call me any names you like bu tI am simply stating the facts that your own government has published.

 

[esmith]

I'm also glad you were not abused in the armed forces
depends on ones definition of "abused"

 

[columbus]

So, I guess I was a weak, destitute, desperate, and poor when I joined the service in 1961 and over 20 years later could look back at a profession that I was and still proud to say I served in. I would say something to you but then I would get dinged by the moderators.

I understand what you are saying. But A LOT has changed in the 5+ decades since then. The USA has never been attacked by a force that the military of 1961 could cope with. One could more easily make a case that our military power was misused in ways that inspired 9/11. Regardless of your opinion of Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Israel, etc. lots of people have come to the conclusion that the USA military is almost entirely a mercenary force used by the billionaires to fight for their commercial interests.
If an invading army ever showed up on our borders people's attitudes would probably change. As long as that remains such a remote possibility, the armed forces aren't going to inspire people the way WWII did.
A fundamental distrust of our government is going to be a lasting legacy of the Iraqi invasion. Doesn't matter what you think.
Tom

 

[Mycroft]

As well you should if this country is attacked and you refuse to serve.

Urgh. You're the worst kind of American. 'Everyone is free, unless you don't do this or this. Then you can get the **** out of my country, traitor!'

America is built upon freedom. That includes the freedom to choose whether to serve or not. If you don't like that, perhaps it is you who should consider leaving America.

You could go and start your own country called, er, gunloveistan (since North Korea is already taken).

 

[metis]

I voted "yes".

 

[Sapiens]

I did not choose "current standards" because I don't know how much of them are real, are hazing, or exist to keep women off the job.

 

[sun rise]

Ok, now that they have the same "opportunities" that their male counterparts have does this mean that they have to register for Selective Service, does that mean that they will not have a choice whether they are assigned to a combat front line unit. Hey if that is what they want then they are going to have to be treated just as their male counterparts. Just saying.

True. Equality means equality.

And very importantly having a bad-*** female soldier toting a gun is a great answer to all the fanatics who want to stuff women back into their fantasy of the 7th century. And they're the perfect people to verify that someone who is wearing women's clothing is not really a cowardly male terrorist in drag.

 

[sun rise]

I suppose I am insane then? Thanks.

You know, some people, women included, go into the military because it has become a tradition in their family. A proud one at that. We who grow up with it know the risks, the dangers, and how to conduct oneself. And no one had to recruit me. I recruited myself. I went to the office. I set up my appointments for MEPS. I pursued the Navy. I gladly did so. I am proud of what I learned while in, of who it made me, of what I accomplished and the service I performed while in. In fact, there is a part of me which kicks itself on a regular basis for not staying in. But I did get out at my EAOS and now that time in is a part of me. Of who and what I am as a person. I don't regret it in the least. At least, in the military, women aren't worked for longer hours for less pay now are they? We work the same hours and are paid the same pay rates.

As for sexual harassment, yeah, I received some while in, but then, I've received some in practically every job I've had at one time or another. It's not just a risk of being a woman in the military, it is a risk of being a woman period. And if a woman is willing to step up and deal with it in order to serve, then who is anyone to say she shouldn't? The problem isn't women in the military, the problem is how we raise our boys and men. Deal with making men who aren't violators and we wouldn't have to deal with the problems of women (and some other men) being victims.

I salute you.

 

[leibowde84]

what do you think of the abnormally high rates of sexual abuse that female recruits suffer in the US army?

That it needs to be stopped. But, certainly not at the expense of women in general. Those criminals must be held responsible.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

That it needs to be stopped. But, certainly not at the expense of women in general. Those criminals must be held responsible.

I'm not saying that women should NEVER join the army, here or the US but I'm saying, that these institutions, which are now actively trying to recruit large numbers of women and where the media is propelling this BS feminist ideology that women should join the army, should not be doing so. The armies of the world need to be cleaned up first, especially with regards to women and THEN women should be asked to join.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm not saying that women should NEVER join the army, here or the US but I'm saying, that these institutions, which are now actively trying to recruit large numbers of women and where the media is propelling this BS feminist ideology that women should join the army, should not be doing so. The armies of the world need to be cleaned up first, especially with regards to women and THEN women should be asked to join.

Why not ask a feminist if we've addressed the issue of elevated risk of abuse, harassment, and rape in the U.S. forces?

We have. We continue to. We're talking with Congress members who are committed to introducing legislation that makes perpetrators accountable to outside agencies and not to a commanding officer or within ranks.

We also have introduced the sexism that exists in expecting military to draft males and not females, thereby assuming males are more disposable and females are less capable.

The feminists that I am active with and discuss these issues with do not see these two problems as mutually exclusive. We should counter the culture of rape AND we should challenge SS on its overt sexism.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Why not ask a feminist if we've addressed the issue of elevated risk of abuse, harassment, and rape in the U.S. forces?

We have. We continue to. We're talking with Congress members who are committed to introducing legislation that makes perpetrators accountable to outside agencies and not to a commanding officer or within ranks.

We also have introduced the sexism that exists in expecting military to draft males and not females, thereby assuming males are more disposable and females are less capable.

The feminists that I am active with and discuss these issues with do not see these two problems as mutually exclusive. We should counter the culture of rape AND we should challenge SS on its overt sexism.

Maybe your group of feminists are great at doing this and I applaud you but the biggest go getters ,the ones who impact the media and society at large, seem to be more concerned about the length of women's skirts or breast feeding in public than far more serious issues.

But, ultimately, I don't think it's safe for a woman to join the army without a massive, massive drop in sexual assault and changes in law that are backed up and enforced. Plus, all tv ads and promotional material for the army MUST make it abundantly clear, especially to women, what the risks of joining the army are.

No sane woman should or would join an institution where she is likely to be raped multiple times and then nothing is done about that.

 

[columbus]

No sane woman should or would join an institution where she is likely to be raped multiple times and then nothing is done about that.

I try to look at these things in a big picture way.
At the moment, women in the military are a small anomaly. Men in the age group are still inclined to think with their dicks. So there is a big problem with male abuse of females.

But suppose a more substantial number of women joined, and they kicked some butt WHEREVER that was needed. I think things would change rapidly.

Especially if the women had grown up hearing a lot less, "That's not very ladylike, dear." and a lot more, "No pain, no gain, b***h!".
Tom

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

I try to look at these things in a big picture way.
At the moment, women in the military are a small anomaly. Men in the age group are still inclined to think with their dicks. So there is a big problem with male abuse of females.

But suppose a more substantial number of women joined, and they kicked some butt WHEREVER that was needed. I think things would change rapidly.

Especially if the women had grown up hearing a lot less, "That's not very ladylike, dear." and a lot more, "No pain, no gain, b***h!".
Tom

The reality is and it's always important to remember reality rather than some dream world, the number of women will never outweigh the number of men in the army, for various, obvious reasons.

The issue isn't even numbers, it's about bringing in legislation and then enforcing that legislation. Simple. Till then, I think it would be better for women to stay away from the army. For their own safety, not mine, not yours, not anyone elses. If they don't want to, well that's a decision they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

 

[columbus]

The reality is and it's always important to remember reality rather than some dream world, the number of women will never outweigh the number of men in the army, for various, obvious reasons.

I don't think it is a dream world and does not require a female majority. If even one in ten of the members of any random group were females, things would change a great deal. If messing with one were messing with all of them, as well as the other guys who disapproved of the behavior. It's more about "critical mass" than numerical superiority. I consider it quite feasible.
Tom

 

[columbus]

The issue isn't even numbers, it's about bringing in legislation and then enforcing that legislation.

There are many problems in the world that I think legislation is a poor solution to, and this is one of them. A combination of education and social pressure I believe would be far more effective.
The modern world is much better for us gay people, and it was not legislation that helped.
Tom

 

[Draka]

Women are not the problem and should be able to be wherever they want and do whatever they want. The issue is not us. The issue is men. The issue is the attitude and mindset so many men are raised to believe is okay. Women are not "insane" for wanting to join the military, for serving their country. Sexual predators in any job, every job, are the ones that need dealt with. That happens by preventing them from even existing. Teaching men that they do not have priority over women. That they cannot take what they want. That sexually harassing a woman is not in any way okay.

The solution to sexual harassment in the military is not less women at all. We shouldn't be seen as a rare commodity. We should be seen as equals.

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe your group of feminists are great at doing this and I applaud you but the biggest go getters ,the ones who impact the media and society at large, seem to be more concerned about the length of women's skirts or breast feeding in public than far more serious issues.

But, ultimately, I don't think it's safe for a woman to join the army without a massive, massive drop in sexual assault and changes in law that are backed up and enforced. Plus, all tv ads and promotional material for the army MUST make it abundantly clear, especially to women, what the risks of joining the army are.

No sane woman should or would join an institution where she is likely to be raped multiple times and then nothing is done about that.

Perhaps their joining is what it takes for change, eh?
Some will have a rough time of it.

 

[averageJOE]

Maybe your group of feminists are great at doing this and I applaud you but the biggest go getters ,the ones who impact the media and society at large, seem to be more concerned about the length of women's skirts or breast feeding in public than far more serious issues.

But, ultimately, I don't think it's safe for a woman to join the army without a massive, massive drop in sexual assault and changes in law that are backed up and enforced. Plus, all tv ads and promotional material for the army MUST make it abundantly clear, especially to women, what the risks of joining the army are.

No sane woman should or would join an institution where she is likely to be raped multiple times and then nothing is done about that.

So, do you think all colleges should "MUST make it abundantly clear" to all females the chance of them being raped at their college will be? Nowadays, a female will equally, if not more, be raped in college than the military.