Ok Women, You Have Gotten Your Wish

[averageJOE]

I would expect an officer in training to have a degree. I would not expect an "other rank" to have one. Though some technicians certainly do.
It would be unusual and perhaps unnecessary for an infantry man to have one.

Nothing unusual about it at all. Soldier's, regardless of MOS, with a degree is commonplace in the military.

 

[averageJOE]

It also varies by branch. Each branch has different requirements for intelligence. The minimum requirements for ASVAB scores are different for each branch.

I'm not talking about the ASVAB. I'm talking about soldiers who are already in that are pursuing higher education. They are learning, as well as being taught, to look at life after their military contract ends. Soldiers today are very smart. One of my E4's has a masters in chemistry.

 

[esmith]

How do you expect the military to change a 18 year old males attitudes that has been developing for most of their life within a year or less;. It is not the military responsibility to change the culture of a society. However, the USMC has a proven method of turning a civilian into a Marine, but that still does not change the cultural attitudes.

If they have a propensity for rape and pillage they should not be in the forces.
In fact the best place for such a person is prison or psycho ward.

Explain to me how your follow-up statement has any bearing on my statement. And to get really serious how does one determine ones predilection for rape and pillage?

 

[Draka]

You know, mental screenings might be a good idea for entrance into the military. There really aren't any real mental health checks before enlisting. You have physical exams, intelligence and aptitude exams, but no real psychiatric exams. This would be a way to weed out not only potential sexual violators, but also the ones who just can't handle the rigors of training and military life. I think we have all heard of those who go in and find they just can't mentally handle it and purposely hurt themselves or worse in order to get out. It happens with some regularity. So, perhaps psychological screenings for entrance into the service might be beneficial in more than one regard.

 

[Mycroft]

You know, mental screenings might be a good idea for entrance into the military. There really aren't any real mental health checks before enlisting. You have physical exams, intelligence and aptitude exams, but no real psychiatric exams. This would be a way to weed out not only potential sexual violators, but also the ones who just can't handle the rigors of training and military life. I think we have all heard of those who go in and find they just can't mentally handle it and purposely hurt themselves or worse in order to get out. It happens with some regularity. So, perhaps psychological screenings for entrance into the service might be beneficial in more than one regard.

They would never do that. The Military want sociopaths and psychopaths in their ranks. That way they'll always have someone to push the big red button for them.

 

[esmith]

They would never do that. The Military want sociopaths and psychopaths in their ranks. That way they'll always have someone to push the big red button for them.

 

[Draka]

They would never do that. The Military want sociopaths and psychopaths in their ranks. That way they'll always have someone to push the big red button for them.

Not so. The military wants rational people who will do their job and follow orders, not someone who is going to break down in an emergency or commit crimes or cause them general headaches. Psychiatric checks would only benefit them. The issue is probably more an issue of time and money, but if it was looked at more as a preventive measure it would actually save them time and money dealing with dishonorable discharges.

 

[Draka]

Already bit. A claim that ridiculous...I couldn't not.

 

[jonathan180iq]

The Hellenistic soldiers were permitted to have strong loving relationships with other warriors because it was believed to promote stronger battlefield protection responses. I don't see why we can't do that with men and women in modern times, especially considering that war is not at all fought like it used to be. I really don't see a problem with it.

 

[Draka]

@esmith out of curiosity, would you agree that psychiatric/mental health checks prior to entrance would be a benefit to the military in regards to potential sexual predators and other mental issues? I mean, there are regular physical exams and requirements to meet, wouldn't psychological ones be good as well?

 

[esmith]

@esmith out of curiosity, would you agree that psychiatric/mental health checks prior to entrance would be a benefit to the military in regards to potential sexual predators and other mental issues? I mean, there are regular physical exams and requirements to meet, wouldn't psychological ones be good as well?

Well, let me ask you a simple question. How many hours do you think it would it take to have a psychiatrist determine the mental state of a person wanting to join the military? What would disqualify a person mentally from joining the military? How accurate would the psychological exam be? Is it possible that the mental makeup of someone wishing to join the military, especially those that would be placed in combat rolls would be different than your average run-of-the mill 18 year old? In other words, no I do not believe a psychology exam would be beneficial nor be able to qualitatively determine if a person was or was not mentally fit for the military. Except the rare incident of a total nut case wanting to join.

 

[Draka]

Well, let me ask you a simple question. How many hours do you think it would it take to have a psychiatrist determine the mental state of a person wanting to join the military? What would disqualify a person mentally from joining the military? How accurate would the psychological exam be? Is it possible that the mental makeup of someone wishing to join the military, especially those that would be placed in combat rolls would be different than your average run-of-the mill 18 year old? In other words, no I do not believe a psychology exam would be beneficial nor be able to qualitatively determine if a person was or was not mentally fit for the military. Except the rare incident of a total nut case wanting to join.

Basic mental health checks could certainly be done through boot camp and regularly throughout service even if prior exams might not be feasible though.

 

[esmith]

Basic mental health checks could certainly be done through boot camp and regularly throughout service even if prior exams might not be feasible though.

they are done, but not by professionals. they are called performance evaluations. Normally conducted by, at least in the Navy, by the senior enlisted member of the persons division, with consultation from the persons direct supervisor, and reviewed by the divisions officer. This type of evaluation is based on daily observation of professional and military performance. Yes it can catch possible deviations from accepted military standards.

 

[Draka]

they are done, but not by professionals. they are called performance evaluations. Normally conducted by, at least in the Navy, by the senior enlisted member of the persons division, with consultation from the persons direct supervisor, and reviewed by the divisions officer. This type of evaluation is based on daily observation of professional and military performance. Yes it can catch possible deviations from accepted military standards.

Your evals aren't really a mental health check though. I'm talking about having regular exams much like your physicals and PRTs. If you had a therapist session as a requirement every so often with a professional it would have a greater likelihood of finding something wrong before it becomes an issue. Performance evals, as you said, are done with your superior. Other than cordial chatting you aren't likely to reveal very many personal issues with your supervisor. Especially if some of the issues you are having may be with them. I know I had to jump the chain of command to deal with my LPO and advances he made towards me. Sometimes things are better handled outside the chain, if you understand what I'm talking about.

 

[esmith]

Your evals aren't really a mental health check though. I'm talking about having regular exams much like your physicals and PRTs. If you had a therapist session as a requirement every so often with a professional it would have a greater likelihood of finding something wrong before it becomes an issue. Performance evals, as you said, are done with your superior. Other than cordial chatting you aren't likely to reveal very many personal issues with your supervisor. Especially if some of the issues you are having may be with them. I know I had to jump the chain of command to deal with my LPO and advances he made towards me. Sometimes things are better handled outside the chain, if you understand what I'm talking about.

Sorry about your incident. However, I am old Navy and going outside the chain-of-command is not something that I would support. However, you did not go outside of your chain-of-command by reporting a violation of the UCMJ. I don't know what your specialty was but I served for 20+ years. I knew more about the problems my men were experiencing than they thought I knew. Most observant people can detect a change in a person by their daily interaction with them. As far as your LPO, yeah there are those that let their authority go to their head. This has been a problem forever.

 

[Draka]

Sorry about your incident. However, I am old Navy and going outside the chain-of-command is not something that I would support. However, you did not go outside of your chain-of-command by reporting a violation of the UCMJ. I don't know what your specialty was but I served for 20+ years. I knew more about the problems my men were experiencing than they thought I knew. Most observant people can detect a change in a person by their daily interaction with them. As far as your LPO, yeah there are those that let their authority go to their head. This has been a problem forever.

I was an AT for SH-60Fs.

There are some things you wouldn't want your closest workers knowing too. It could impact the way they treat you in undesirable ways. Example: I didn't tell anyone in my shop about my husband abusing me nor the legal problems I was having with restraining orders and divorce and so on. It was enough of a challenge to get several of the guys to take me seriously as a tech being a woman, I didn't need them thinking me any weaker than they already believed I was because a man was beating me at home. At least, that was my mindset, whether they would have or not. I actually did kind of do a no-no and skip heads, but as it wasn't Naval business I approached the LO as a personal advisor. He couldn't do anything for me himself, but he sat, listened to my problems, and advised me as well as he could in a non-official way. This was to my benefit later on as there was a time my husband attacked me, and in the effort to get away from him I left scratches, causing him to throw me out of the apartment and call the cops on me. He showed his scratches, they never looked at me, and I was arrested for domestic and spent 3 days in jail (no charges on me to boot). Thus, UA for 3 days. The CMC wanted the LO to charge me and the LO refused. They had a heated argument about it as I sat outside the CMC's office. The LO went to bat for me all the way. Having someone you can talk to about personal issues can be a boon. If I had a regular therapist I could have called upon them to speak on my behalf. Luckily I had the LO.

 

[averageJOE]

I know I had to jump the chain of command to deal with my LPO and advances he made towards me. Sometimes things are better handled outside the chain, if you understand what I'm talking about.

In today's military, soldiers are taught that when it comes to personal concerns/problems, like harassment, bullying, discrimination, intimidation, etc, chain of command does not exist. They are taught to talk to anyone they are comfortable with. Also, every soldier is being taught to stop and listen, pretty much drop everything they are doing, when a fellow soldier says they need to talk. I can't speak for other branches, but we are given multiple contacts outside of the Army of professionals to talk to.

Times are changing. We are not quite where we need to be yet, but I believe we are on the right path.

 

[Midnight Rain]

It is far from being change, it has, in fact, gotten worse over the years. So , I assume you are a feminist, do you think it would be safe for women to join the army under the current climate? Would you encourage them to do so? Is it a valid career option in modern America?

I think what T_C was getting at is that there is an irregularly high sexual abuse rate in the military, and once you put in women with that predominantly straight group its likely to increase.

I don't like to respond to older posts and this isn't directed actually at either of you. But this is a point that needs to be said. The answer to the high rates of sexual abuse in the military isn't to remove women from the military. It is to remove the offenders from the military. It is *** backwards thinking that would require women to leave the military because some jackasses can't keep it in their pants. More women would help this issue. In fact more women in higher ranks would help this far more.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

I don't like to respond to older posts and this isn't directed actually at either of you. But this is a point that needs to be said. The answer to the high rates of sexual abuse in the military isn't to remove women from the military. It is to remove the offenders from the military. It is *** backwards thinking that would require women to leave the military because some jackasses can't keep it in their pants. More women would help this issue. In fact more women in higher ranks would help this far more.

I never once said women should leave the army or not join the army at all, in fact, in my initial response, I spoke of how superiors in the army have refused to prosecute such cases or note them officially. That problem needs to be eradicated, so I agree when you say certain elements need to be pushed out of the army. But, it's quite common sense to understand that the current environment is not suited for women and in my opinion they are safer away from the army o rat the very least need to be better educated about what is going on there, which they are not.

If you think that enough women will one day join the army and push the status quo out, you're very badly mistaken. That's not reality. I'm just stating real facts but again, if a woman wants to join the army, with full knowledge of what happens there, then she is free to do so and is also free to suffer the consequences. I hope she doesn't but it's most likely that she will.

 

[Midnight Rain]

I never once said women should leave the army or not join the army at all, in fact, in my initial response, I spoke of how superiors in the army have refused to prosecute such cases or note them officially. That problem needs to be eradicated, so I agree when you say certain elements need to be pushed out of the army. But, it's quite common sense to understand that the current environment is not suited for women and in my opinion they are safer away from the army o rat the very least need to be better educated about what is going on there, which they are not.

I believe I stated in my last post that this wasn't directed at you or the other person I quoted. I was quoting the response to make a point which I feel I did. We need to focus right now on ending these issues. We need education as well as changes to be made.

If you think that enough women will one day join the army and push the status quo out, you're very badly mistaken. That's not reality. I'm just stating real facts but again, if a woman wants to join the army, with full knowledge of what happens there, then she is free to do so and is also free to suffer the consequences. I hope she doesn't but it's most likely that she will.

More and more women are joining every year. We currently have 69 admiral and general ranked women. More than 200,000 total women are in the military at the moment and that percentage is continuing to change. The major places that we see the incidents are the infantry front line units. This is where women have the least representation of just under 3%. The overall percentage of women in the ranks are about 14% of the total military. The largest % being in Air Force and the lowest in the Marines.