Olaf Scholz: the NATO will not be part of the Ukrainian War

[Debater Slayer]

The idea that we wouldn't have won without them is not really true, as that medal goes to the USSR.

I can't say whether the Allies would have won without the US, but I agree about the USSR, at least in terms of lives lost in the war. They gave far more lives to defeat the Axis than any of the other Allied countries did.

Nowadays, I see a lot of downplaying of the USSR's role in defeating Nazi Germany, and I think that sort of historical erasure is fundamentally counterproductive.

It is still true that the USSR initially helped Nazi Germany and then engaged in some of the worst atrocities in modern history after the war, though.

 

[Stevicus]

You don't understand. Ever.
Not "not at the moment".
Germans and Italians are over with the notion of war.

I do understand that nothing is ever permanent.

"No one ever forgets where they buried the hatchet," as the saying goes.

The American people doesn't. But the US elitist cabal of warmonger does.

Possibly, although even they seem somewhat hobbled at the moment. Looks like they're not holding all the cards anymore. Due to their myopic leadership, the U.S. geopolitical position in the world has declined and weakened in the past 40-50 years (but just not as badly as the USSR declined and weakened, which is why they think they "won" the Cold War). Their economic short-sightedness has also led to a much larger and more disgruntled underclass in America which seems to be growing more restless these days.

A good indication of this is that the political elite in America has degenerated so badly that they're seemingly unable to find anyone of any decent quality to represent them or their interests in the eyes of the people. Look at the sorry, pathetic bunch of politicians we've had lately. There are multitudes of bright, intelligent Americans out there who much smarter and would make much better statesmen than the sad bunch we have now, but no one of any genuine quality really wants to touch politics with a ten-foot pole. Why should they?

Heck, at this point, I'd even vote for @Revoltingest, but believe me, that's no compliment to @Revoltingest.

Putin is not interested in Europe. In any European country.

I didn't think he was. If he's following the same patterns and habits one would expect from a Russian nationalist and a wannabe Tsar, then Russia would not be expected to have territorial aspirations in most of Europe. However, Russians and Serbians have had a long-term special relationship as well. As a result, the Russians have always had a long term interest in Balkan affairs. The resurgence of Eastern Orthodoxy in Russia could also rekindle ancient religious-based aspirations, such as retaking present-day Istanbul (Constantinople) back for Orthodoxy.

I'm not arguing that Putin is peaceful or even that is not a potential threat to the West, but I just don't see any logical or historical basis to the West's projection that Putin is secretly planning to invade the rest of Europe.

 

[Estro Felino]

Does it make you happy that Putin
is being encouraged & permitted
to invade more countries?

Encouraged by whom?

 

[Koldo]

Yes.

And afterwards the sheltered a bunch of them and gave them jobs.

Good luck living in Europe without alliances.

 

[Estro Felino]

It is threat of attack vs ongoing attack a useful distinction?
You posted...
"Then let these places fight on their own? There are enough of them."
If those countries should fight on their own,
why should USA have assisted England, if
it shouldn't assist European countries?

Note that England invaded & attacked USA
a couple times. Those countries never did.

WW2 has never been something static. But incredibly mutable.
Germany and Russia were allies. Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact.
Russia was in on it, when Poland was invaded. They wanted to dismember it and divy up the cake, once again.

It happened that strangely....the Nazis decided to break the pact and to invade Russia.
Italians had no idea that Hitler wanted to take Moscow. Otherwise they would have never been in the war.

 

[Stevicus]

Germany didn't attack the US though. By this rationale, the US shouldn't have attacked Germany.

Germany declared war on the U.S. four days after their Japanese allies attacked US territory in Hawaii and the Philippines. We attacked Germany because they declared war.

 

[Revoltingest]

The US dragged its ****, that's for sure.

Would you prefer that USA left England & Europe
to defend themselves. It appears that this is your
philosophy regarding Europe being invaded by Russia.

The idea that we wouldn't have won without them is not really true, as that medal goes to the USSR.

Yeah....USA was superfluous in Europe during WW2.

The problem is when everyone piles on to defend everyone else, that's when you end with a world war.

But you specifically opposed assisting countries
that Putin would invade. This isn't "everyone".

I don't support a world war.

I also don't support NATO or US and UK interventionism.

Do you oppose USA having assisted England in WW2?

 

[Revoltingest]

Encouraged by whom?

Your dear Trump & Republicans.

 

[Revoltingest]

WW2 has never been something static. But incredibly mutable.
Germany and Russia were allies. Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact.
Russia was in on it, when Poland was invaded. They wanted to dismember it and divy up the cake, once again.

It happened that strangely....the Nazis decided to break the pact and to invade Russia.
Italians had no idea that Hitler wanted to take Moscow. Otherwise they would have never be in the war.

Irrelevant.
Although I'll note that Italy sided with Hitler.

 

[Estro Felino]

Your dear Trump & Republicans.

Only them?
I thought you would say Orban, Wilders, Fitso...

 

[Koldo]

Germany declared war on the U.S. four days after their Japanese allies attacked US territory in Hawaii and the Philippines.

And did nothing meaningful against the US thereafter.

 

[Estro Felino]

Irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant.
Maybe someone overseas bribed the Nazis, ordering them to invade Russia, on their behalf?

Italy couldn't care less about Russia. Or about Japan.
Italy just wanted to take the full control of the Mediterranean back. Period.
The freezing cold of the steppe has never interested us, dear sir.

Although I'll note that Italy sided with Hitler.

Siding with the German people doesn't mean to support any crazy idea the Nazis had.
If you read the history books, the King of Italy got sick and tired of the war and signed the armistice with the Americans in 1943.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not irrelevant.
Maybe someone overseas bribed the Nazis, ordering them to invade Russia, on their behalf?

Elite bankers, no doubt, eh.

 

[Rival]

Good luck living in Europe without alliances.

I do live in Europe. In live in GB.

 

[Estro Felino]

Elite bankers, no doubt, eh.

Bravo. I see you remember my threads.

 

[Rival]

Would you prefer that USA left England & Europe
to defend themselves. It appears that this is your
philosophy regarding Europe being invaded by Russia.

Yeah....USA was superfluous in Europe during WW2.

But you specifically opposed assisting countries
that Putin would invade. This isn't "everyone".

Do you oppose USA having assisted England in WW2?

Well, since you are constantly confusing the UK for 'England' I'm not sure...

The UK had a huge Empire to defend us, we were not dependent on the US.

I'm neutral about their involvement but over here in GB we give way more credit to the USSR and the US comes off as basically a footnote in WWII.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do live in Europe. In live in GB.

Although without foreign meddling,
your posts would be auf Deutsch.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, since you are constantly confusing the UK for 'England' I'm not sure...

I know the difference.

The UK had a huge Empire to defend us, we were not dependent on the US.

Well, on behalf of USA, I hereby apologize
for having meddled in WW2.

I'm neutral about their involvement but over here in GB we give way more credit to the USSR and the US comes off as basically a footnote in WWII.

Now I regret USA having wasted money
& lives in a wasted effort over there.

 

[Stevicus]

I can't say whether the Allies would have won without the US, but I agree about the USSR, at least in terms of lives lost in the war. They gave far more lives to defeat the Axis than any of the other Allied countries did.

Nowadays, I see a lot of downplaying of the USSR's role in defeating Nazi Germany, and I think that sort of historical erasure is fundamentally counterproductive.

It is still true that the USSR initially helped Nazi Germany and then engaged in some of the worst atrocities in modern history after the war, though.

WW2 has always been a subject of fascination, as there are so many different events and angles one can look at. It also has reached a certain level of "epic glory" where it's often depicted as a monumental, grandiose struggle of good vs. evil, where it's seen more on a mystical or spiritual level than political or historical. That same basic perception was carried through the Cold War and even up to the present-day, as indicated by a discussion of World War 2 cropping up in a discussion of current geopolitical events.

I'm reminded of something I heard Phil Donahue say on one of his talk shows, where he had some Reaganite warmonger types on as guests, and one of them mentioned Hitler. Donahue replied to the effect of "There you go again. Whatever would you guys do without Hitler? Hitler gave a good name to war."

 

[Estro Felino]

Although without foreign meddling,
your posts would be auf Deutsch.

The fact is that we are discussing about paranoiac assumptions here.
Tucker Carlson's interview with Putin clearly showed that Putin is not interested in Europe. And that question exclusively revolves around the Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine, that now have become republics of the Russian Federation.
Period.
I still recall when Yugoslavia was basically dismembered, and NATO would support the new republics.
It was traumatic, but necessary. You know...it's next to us...the Balkan area.

Why does America want to side against the new autonomous republics in Russia?