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On Evolution & Creation

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I know how evolution is supposed to work according to those who believe in evolution.

From reading your posts, it seems you don't understand as well as you think you do.


I believe you sincerely believe that.

It's a fact.

I also believe you are sincerely wrong.

Then you are factually incorrect.

Regardless of evolution, humans factually are eukaryotes, vertebrates, tetrapods, mammals, primates.
Those are a matter of biological, anatomical and genetic facts.

You can not define what a "vertebrate" is while including all known vertebrates and not humans, except by arbitrarily adding to the definition "...but not humans".
The same goes for biological definitions of "animal", "tetrapod", "mammal", "primate",...

List all features that all animals, tetrapods, mammals, etc have in common.
Humans will have those features.

Plain and simple.

But that is your choice.

Yes, it is my "choice" to accept the facts of reality and not to pretend as if my preferred beliefs trump reality.
When the facts of reality disagree with my beliefs, I don't assume reality to be incorrect.

At least we can agree on that'

Not really.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
OK, I understand.

Do you? Do you really? I seriously doubt it. As you prove in the next sentence:

You have no verifiable evidence that fruit flies evolved to something other than fruit flies.


Correct, I do not have evidence that disproves evolution. :shrug:

Thank you very much. Oh, and finches, despite their changing beak sizes or color or feather variations are observed to stay finches.

Yes, as evolution predicts. :shrug:

Not enough time perhaps to notice finches evolving to something other than i the finch "family"? :) :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::
No. See, evolution is actually correct. And if evolution is correct, finches won't evolve into non-finches.



3 years worth of explaining this and you have still learned exactly nothing
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Do we observe [ non-life ] turning into life?
The topic is evolution. Remember, when you move the goalposts you have conceded that evolution is a fact. This is the second time that you have done this.
Do we observe any [ species ] turning into a totally different species?

We observe speciation all of the time. But no species ever becomes a "totally different species". That would refute evolution. You seem to have forgotten that you are still an ape.
Do we observe [ cells alone ] turning into any species?
Yes.
Do we observe Multicellular Organism like a dog, turning into a totally different species?
No. Once again you forgot that you are still an ape.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Thanks I will keep this in mind. Why is evolution called a fact by some, when some parts are not observable?
White settlers generally migrated across America from the east. This is a fact though we cannot observe it today. What is needed for a claim to be a fact is evidence. And yet you refuse to learn what is and what is not evidence.

If you were serious that would have been the first thing that you ever did.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You need to link the website so I can look at it in context. Just posting bits and pieces is a waste of time.
It is a poorly labeled and out of date illustration. For one thing it uses the term amphibians instead of tetrapods. Technically our distant ancestors were amphibians, they had to lay eggs in water. A need that we evolved out of over 300 million years ago. And that leads to an even bigger error. Amniotes are the clade that evolved from early amphibians. They were not reptiles. They split into synapsids from which mammals ultimately arose and sauropsids. Those became reptiles and dinosaurs. Our ancestors were never reptiles.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
maybe you can explain chordata to me, it's a term I've never heard before.
The technical answer is complex, but broadly speaking, the chordates are the fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. They have heads and tails, have symmetric right and left sides, endoskeletons, and brains, spinal cords (neural tubes) and (most have) bony vertebral columns.
You did not have and still do not have a first life-form to evolve.
The biological evolution of populations over generations requires a living population to act on.
You have zero evidence to place your faith in.
I don't use faith to decide what is true about the world. Empiricism or the application of reason to evidence, is more reliable. Beliefs like "my car will probably start tomorrow" allow for some uncertainty, are derived from prior experience, and should not be called faith in the sense of religious-type faith. They are justified beliefs and are demonstrably correct. The car probably will start, but sometimes, it won't. That's a fact not believed by faith.
You have zero evidence that abiogenesis ever took place.
We have life in the universe. It either arose naturalistically or supernaturalistically. We have nature, but zero evidence that ant more than that exists.
To the best of my knowledge, neither you nor the Norm you mention are God
Correct. But you didn't explain how you know that God did it and not Norm, or why you think one statement is more accurate than the other or has more explanatory or predictive power.
The Bible is not a science textbook that changes its statements or findings from year to year.
Correct. Scripture is fossilized and cannot evolve unless people want to translate it differently or change the meaning of its words. But science adapts. It grows as we learn.

And yes, it can be frustrating. I watched a very good show on the history of the first three of four eons in earth history. Apparently, comets and asteroids are out as the source of the earth's oceans with outgassing of native water into the atmosphere resulting in the oceans, and Late Heavy Bombardment has come under scrutiny and may not have been a thing. These are the results of various probes reaching and testing the water in these heavenly bodies and discovering that their water doesn't resemble earth's water in terms of the amount of deuterium in it (heavy water).

That's the glory of science and its evolving narratives. At any time, they represent the likeliest explanation for the available evidence, but as the evidence accrues, from time to time, the narrative must be modified t reflect those new findings. That's the tentative nature of science and of the skeptical temperament. No narrative (scientific explanation) is considered the final word.
It's purpose is not to discuss DNA, RNA, and brain sizes.
The purpose of the Genesis creation myth was to explain how the world came to be (six days of creation including the first two human beings) and how it works (miracles, prayer). Its authors had no understanding of biochemistry and didn't know what brains do. They had a concept of minds and knowledge but hadn't connected that with brains.

I did a search on the topic of the brain in the Bible, and the hits were all about mind with none mentioning brains. The people who compiled this list knew that minds and brains were related, which is why they chose scriptures about minds, but the Bible writers were unaware of that. Aristotle thought that the brain was to cool the blood: What Does the Bible Say About Your Brain?
@It Aint Necessarily So:You said, " Evolution allows for prior creationism." It does?
The theory of evolution doesn't depend on abiogenesis, just that there be living populations experiencing genetic variation over generations and subjected to environmental pressures (natural selection).
But terms are used that can stem from assumptions and more, and can be misleading to scientists as well as others -- As scientists, we need to stop using harmful and misleading terminology
The article was about lay people misunderstanding scientific terminology. That's not a problem for scientists.
Single-cells transform into many cells everyday, It doesn't take millions of years.
Don't confuse the growth and development of an individual from zygote to adult with the evolution of populations over generations. They can both be called biological evolution, but they are very different things, and the term almost always refers to Darwinian evolution. WhenI refer to biological evolution next, it will mean only the latter.
So why does this take millions of years, for these things to happen?
  • Non-life becoming Life?
  • A single-cell becoming Multicellular Organism like a Dog?
  • Multicellular Organisms becoming a different Multicellular Organism or Species..........I would like to see a video on this from any scientist, chemist or biologist.
These represent different processes from the growth and development of an individual organism, which occurs in a lifetime.
Do we observe [ non-life ] turning into life?
Yes. Living cells turn nonliving ingredients into new living cells.
Do we observe Multicellular Organism like a dog, turning into a totally different species?
No, just as the theory of evolution predicts. That would be the irreducible complexity the ID people were looking for as evidence of an intelligent designer and would falsify the theory or at least mean that naturalistic biological evolution a la Darwin wasn't the only factor causing life to change over generations.
Why is evolution called a fact by some, when some parts are not observable?
Evolution is an observable fact. It's why your parents are genetically distinct from both you and their parents. And It's all observable, although the largest changes occurred long before we were here to observe them.
Is this the correct stages?

non-life
single-cell
unicellular organisms
chordata
nonlife -> unicellular life -> multicellular life including chordates such as dogs and man.

This leaves out a lot. For multicellular life to form, which includes not just animals but also plants and fungi, the original bacterial cells had to evolve into different kinds of cell, which occurred over more than a billion years.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
It isn't an assumption. It is a demonstrable fact that can be observed and quantified in extant populations of living things.

Statistical models aren't the mechanism of change, they model it. Not a pseudo-science. A method of analysis and description.

Genetic variation being acted upon by the non-random selection of the environment.

The random nature of the variation is the random component. Mutations cannot be predicted other than knowing they will happen. We don't know and can't know what mutations will happen.

The environment that lead to prior evolutionary paths has changed. The world in which dinosaurs evolved doesn't exist anymore in the sense that the environment over the course of that evolution isn't repeatable under current conditions.

We don't really know that it hasn't happened, but there is no evidence to show it is happening now. And also, not evolution.

Not yet, but who knows what tomorrow might bring.

Different dice, different table, different casino, different place altogether. The expectation that dinosaurs would arise now, under conditions is non-zero, but not very good.

The current model does fine and takes the nature of the environment into account. Good enough to accurately predict Tiktaalik, generate hypotheses and valid explanations for obersvations.

Life repeats. Mutations happen regularly enough to build a clock from them. The environment continues to persist. Gravity seems the same. Atmospheric oxygen has changed over time. Continents have arisen, collapsed and shifted over time. The environment changes over different scales of time. Change may not be as obvious over a single lifespan, but there change happens.

There is no linear progression, even as things change over time, which is the most basic definition of the theory.

Using statistics to draw conclusions and make predictions is very scientific. In fact, Fisher, Haldane and Wright dramatically changed how science is carried out and interpreted leading to a much more stable and rapid advance in our acquisition of knowledge.

Single events going from 0 to 1,000,000,000 in a single step have astronomically infinitesimal odds of success, but a series of small steps over time that accumulate with increasing benefit to fitness do not have the odds so stacked against them.

Infinite dice would still be rolling infinitely with no end or outcome. It's craps before they start rolling.

A stepwise, gradual branching process selected by the environment is a much better, more parsimonious explanation that is supported by the evidence.

Agreed, a totally random process is not observed.

Unfortunately, for your modeling, a linear increase is not what is observed from the evidence and experimentation. Complexity is a result of evolution, but not a demand of evolution. Simplicity has also evolved where traits are reduced and/or lost.

It isn't, so nothing should be done. The statistic are employed in experimental design and to help determine if observations are significant and to provide confidence that the results are not merely random chance.

No idea what you mean here.

Yes. The non-random component of the phenomenon of evolution.

Yes. Agreed.

Complexity can advance. It does not have to. Stable environments conserve complexity or even lead to the reduction of it. The Earth is not a closed system and has a continual source of external energy.

It is the seemingly irreversible change in the environment that results in what is observed. The environment being all the internal, external, biotic and abiotic factors that impinge on the populations. It includes competition, cooperation, symbiosis and all the array of interactions that impact living things and change.

I'm not sure what you mean here either.

You're dismissal of valuable and useful statistical tools is rather puzzling.
Evolution, as is currently modeled, is a blend of logic and dice/cards. Natural selection is rational, being based on selective pressures that come from the environment, based on the laws of physics and nature. If it was a cold place, selection will be based on what can best endure the cold; cause and effect. The dice and cards come in via the genetic aspect of the model; random mutations. Darwin tried to stay rational; just natural selection and breeding. It is modern biology that added dice and cards. It was part of a trend in science, that started in 1920's Physics, that led to the end of the golden age; movement to black box science away from rational science.

It is those dice and cards, that make it pseudo-science. The random addendum is there to fill in lack of logic. If one had a reasonable theory, for genetic change who would resort to dice and cards? It is an admission of not being a fully rational theory. Odds allow you to have a source of faith in the unknown future or past, making it a religion. If you can reason the future, you do not need faith. Natural selection offers a way to anticipate the future based on local pressures. But the dice and cards; mutation, needs faith, since you cannot reason that detail. It is fortune telling and blind man's prophesy.

If we throw dice, the rolls will appear random in the short term, but each side will repeat in the longer term. If we assume genetic dice, over time, like dice, they should repeat, even if randomly. Natural selection, as you said, will have changed its variables for selection. However, even though these repeats may not be selected, we as scientists should be able find living examples of these not selected, repeats. The double sixes should appear here and there, so even if the rules of the game change; natural selection evolves, double sixes still come up. They may not be selected, but they should still come up to be observed. Is that the case?

Below is an interesting observation about a small fern plant. It currently holds the record for the largest DNA, with 50 times the DNA of humans. Size of DNA does not matter in terms of the level of sophistication of life. It is not the meat but the motion. You cannot just add DNA and get a Einstein Tree.

Would it make more sense to have selective pressure not just from the environment, but also internally at the nano-scale via the nature of the chemicals used? Life and DNA use hydrogen bonding, as does water. This is nanoscale selection. Life evolved in water, so the meat and potato chemicals of life should shares this secondary bonding with water; internal chemical environment for natural selection. This replaces the random assumption with chemical logic.

My approach uses the logic of natural selection, but at both the macro and micro levels. Where they meet we have evolution. Life is an extremely complex integration of parts, that scales into the multicellular with billions of integrated cells that also integrate with each other. You need internal and external cooperation to sustain and evolve.

This Tiny Fern Has the World's Largest Known Genome

The plant’s genome has about 50 times as many base pairs as a human’s, and its DNA from a single cell would stretch longer than a football field
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
There are many examples of non-life becoming life - some scientist have said, but other scientists say they are not starting with non-life, they are starting with cells that are alive and then they remove something from the cell and then put something back into the cell, from another cell.

So in reality, they are starting with cells already alive, in the first place.
Big distinction here, evolution is the study of and fact of replicating live entities changing over time. It assumes a live replicator. Abiogenesis is the study of how that live entity came into existence. There are many hypotheses as to how it may have happened, but no-one is sure, only that it is rather a given that at one point on earth there was no life and now there is so it had to have happened somehow. We don't know how abiogenesis happened, but we understand very well how that life form changes once it has reached the single cell stage on up to where life is now.

I suggest that instead of watching videos, start by reading through this and pausing to be sure you are comfortable and understanding of each idea as you go. It is very hard to learn from a video without a fairly deep knowledge of the subject matter before hand.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
James Tour has been a chemist for over 40 years, I am not trying to become a scientist or chemist. Michael Behe has been a biologist for approximately 40 years as of 2023.
Let us know if they find anything but their own issues.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Do you? Do you really? I seriously doubt it. As you prove in the next sentence:
Correct, I do not have evidence that disproves evolution. :shrug:
Clearly (to me) you misrepresent what I am saying. Because, as they say, you moved the goal posts. Since we are so far apart, as the saying goes also illustratively -- you there and me here -- the gap will certainly not be bridged now, as it stands currently. And thank you, and have a nice day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The technical answer is complex, but broadly speaking, the chordates are the fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. They have heads and tails, have symmetric right and left sides, endoskeletons, and brains, spinal cords (neural tubes) and (most have) bony vertebral columns.

The biological evolution of populations over generations requires a living population to act on.

I don't use faith to decide what is true about the world. Empiricism or the application of reason to evidence, is more reliable. Beliefs like "my car will probably start tomorrow" allow for some uncertainty, are derived from prior experience, and should not be called faith in the sense of religious-type faith. They are justified beliefs and are demonstrably correct. The car probably will start, but sometimes, it won't. That's a fact not believed by faith.

We have life in the universe. It either arose naturalistically or supernaturalistically. We have nature, but zero evidence that ant more than that exists.

Correct. But you didn't explain how you know that God did it and not Norm, or why you think one statement is more accurate than the other or has more explanatory or predictive power.

Correct. Scripture is fossilized and cannot evolve unless people want to translate it differently or change the meaning of its words. But science adapts. It grows as we learn.

And yes, it can be frustrating. I watched a very good show on the history of the first three of four eons in earth history. Apparently, comets and asteroids are out as the source of the earth's oceans with outgassing of native water into the atmosphere resulting in the oceans, and Late Heavy Bombardment has come under scrutiny and may not have been a thing. These are the results of various probes reaching and testing the water in these heavenly bodies and discovering that their water doesn't resemble earth's water in terms of the amount of deuterium in it (heavy water).

That's the glory of science and its evolving narratives. At any time, they represent the likeliest explanation for the available evidence, but as the evidence accrues, from time to time, the narrative must be modified t reflect those new findings. That's the tentative nature of science and of the skeptical temperament. No narrative (scientific explanation) is considered the final word.

The purpose of the Genesis creation myth was to explain how the world came to be (six days of creation including the first two human beings) and how it works (miracles, prayer). Its authors had no understanding of biochemistry and didn't know what brains do. They had a concept of minds and knowledge but hadn't connected that with brains.

I did a search on the topic of the brain in the Bible, and the hits were all about mind with none mentioning brains. The people who compiled this list knew that minds and brains were related, which is why they chose scriptures about minds, but the Bible writers were unaware of that. Aristotle thought that the brain was to cool the blood: What Does the Bible Say About Your Brain?

The theory of evolution doesn't depend on abiogenesis, just that there be living populations experiencing genetic variation over generations and subjected to environmental pressures (natural selection).

The article was about lay people misunderstanding scientific terminology. That's not a problem for scientists.

Don't confuse the growth and development of an individual from zygote to adult with the evolution of populations over generations. They can both be called biological evolution, but they are very different things, and the term almost always refers to Darwinian evolution. WhenI refer to biological evolution next, it will mean only the latter.

These represent different processes from the growth and development of an individual organism, which occurs in a lifetime.

Yes. Living cells turn nonliving ingredients into new living cells.

No, just as the theory of evolution predicts. That would be the irreducible complexity the ID people were looking for as evidence of an intelligent designer and would falsify the theory or at least mean that naturalistic biological evolution a la Darwin wasn't the only factor causing life to change over generations.

Evolution is an observable fact. It's why your parents are genetically distinct from both you and their parents. And It's all observable, although the largest changes occurred long before we were here to observe them.

nonlife -> unicellular life -> multicellular life including chordates such as dogs and man.

This leaves out a lot. For multicellular life to form, which includes not just animals but also plants and fungi, the original bacterial cells had to evolve into different kinds of cell, which occurred over more than a billion years.
Unless someone "higher" were to teach you, all I can say is -- have a nice day as it exists I suppose. Take care...:)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks I will keep this in mind. Why is evolution called a fact by some, when some parts are not observable?
Because some parts not observable are evidenced beyond a reasonable doubt. Observation is not the only way to know or measure something.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Do you? Do you really? I seriously doubt it. As you prove in the next sentence:




Correct, I do not have evidence that disproves evolution. :shrug:



Yes, as evolution predicts. :shrug:


No. See, evolution is actually correct. And if evolution is correct, finches won't evolve into non-finches.



3 years worth of explaining this and you have still learned exactly nothing
Any dictionary can give a definition of what evolution is purported to be by "science." (Have a good one...take care...and thanks. Bye for now...)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Any dictionary can give a definition of what evolution is purported to be by "science." (Have a good one...take care...and thanks. Bye for now...)
That is a major error. Dictionaries are quite often inaccurate when it comes to scientific terms. They are not written by scientists at all. If you want a definition of evolution you should be going to a biological source.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
Evolution is change over time. Evolution requires life-forms to evolve.

You did not have and still do not have a first life-form to evolve.


You don't normally talk about man being the first life-form on earth either. But he was, according to my book on creation that has been handed down for years.

All I care about are the facts.

Fact # 1 There was an absence of anything at T=0.
Fact # 2 There was nothing there to expand into the universe we have today.
Fact # 3 It is assumed that a singularity existed there which is only a place where the math don't work.
Fact # 4 You have zero evidence to place your faith in.
Fact # 5 You have zero evidence that abiogenesis ever took place.
Fact # 6 All you have is your faith to believe what you believe and that puts you in the same boat as I am in.

Since we both have to believe in what we believe by our faith we will never agree unless we just agree to disagree.

Enjoy,
What conclusion do you infer from your supposed facts?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Evolution, as is currently modeled, is a blend of logic and dice/cards. Natural selection is rational, being based on selective pressures that come from the environment, based on the laws of physics and nature. If it was a cold place, selection will be based on what can best endure the cold; cause and effect. The dice and cards come in via the genetic aspect of the model; random mutations. Darwin tried to stay rational; just natural selection and breeding. It is modern biology that added dice and cards. It was part of a trend in science, that started in 1920's Physics, that led to the end of the golden age; movement to black box science away from rational science.
I don't understand how you're using logic, here. Logic is a tool to evaluate claims or propositions. It's not a feature of anything.
It is those dice and cards, that make it pseudo-science. The random addendum is there to fill in lack of logic. If one had a reasonable theory, for genetic change who would resort to dice and cards? It is an admission of not being a fully rational theory. Odds allow you to have a source of faith in the unknown future or past, making it a religion. If you can reason the future, you do not need faith. Natural selection offers a way to anticipate the future based on local pressures. But the dice and cards; mutation, needs faith, since you cannot reason that detail. It is fortune telling and blind man's prophesy.

If we throw dice, the rolls will appear random in the short term, but each side will repeat in the longer term. If we assume genetic dice, over time, like dice, they should repeat, even if randomly. Natural selection, as you said, will have changed its variables for selection. However, even though these repeats may not be selected, we as scientists should be able find living examples of these not selected, repeats. The double sixes should appear here and there, so even if the rules of the game change; natural selection evolves, double sixes still come up. They may not be selected, but they should still come up to be observed. Is that the case?
The dice throw is the random part -- mutation or the genetic mixing of sexual reproduction. Once you have an independent organism, however, there is trait sorting by environmental fit.

The selection, natural or otherwise, is the non-random part. Consider: 12s are the best fit for a particular environment. I toss twenty dice (genes) and get a random result. I then pick out all the non 12s and roll the remaining dice again. Again I pick out the non-12s and roll. I keep rolling the non 12s over and over. It won't take too many rolls before all the dice left on the table will be 12s, no?

Do you see the parallel? Would the fitness (% of 12s) not increase with each roll (reproductive cycle)?
There's no logic involved in the exercise, just mechanics.
Below is an interesting observation about a small fern plant. It currently holds the record for the largest DNA, with 50 times the DNA of humans. Size of DNA does not matter in terms of the level of sophistication of life. It is not the meat but the motion. You cannot just add DNA and get a Einstein Tree.
Huh?
Would it make more sense to have selective pressure not just from the environment, but also internally at the nano-scale via the nature of the chemicals used? Life and DNA use hydrogen bonding, as does water. This is nanoscale selection. Life evolved in water, so the meat and potato chemicals of life should shares this secondary bonding with water; internal chemical environment for natural selection. This replaces the random assumption with chemical logic.
Not following.
Sure, there's chemistry involved in lots of things. But selection would involve random chemical interactions, and chemicals behave predictably, according to natural law.
My approach uses the logic of natural selection, but at both the macro and micro levels. Where they meet we have evolution. Life is an extremely complex integration of parts, that scales into the multicellular with billions of integrated cells that also integrate with each other. You need internal and external cooperation to sustain and evolve.

This Tiny Fern Has the World's Largest Known Genome
There is no "logic" in natural selection, it's mechanism; and I don't understand this "meeting of macro and micro levels." Clarify?

Yes, life is complex, but natural selection is just a mechanical sifting of reproductive variants -- at both the micro/physiological, and macro/anatomical level. Where's this second mechanism?
And what does this large-genomed fern have to do with anything?
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is a major error. Dictionaries are quite often inaccurate when it comes to scientific terms. They are not written by scientists at all. If you want a definition of evolution you should be going to a biological source.
Exactly. General dictionaries are descriptive, they give the meanings commonly used by the general public, whether or not the usage is technically accurate.
 
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