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On Genesis and Exodus

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
1) 1 : 15-16 : Regarding the issue of the midwives, in Hebrew it is not specified exactly if they were Hebrew or if they were the midwives of the Hebrew women, that is, they were Egyptian. Does it seem like it's open to the reader's interpretation? Which is ambiguous on purpose. There are some who think they are Egyptian because Pharaoh wouldn't waste his time asking Jewish women to kill Jewish children. On the other hand, one can think that they were Hebrews and draw a good lesson from it for today: a tyrant who empowers women to murder his men. He wants to "feminize" the Hebrews. The first thing a tyrant wants to do is get rid of the figures that may be an opposing force to his system. What do you guys think?


I'm open for understanding... but it does seem like it was pretty clear: 15Now the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one who was named Shifrah, and the second, who was named Puah. Do you know whether the names of the midwives are known Jewish names?

My view is more of a result of the consequences of Genesis 3:15 - a seed that was going to crush the serpents head or authority.... that it was a direct attempt to kill the potential of the "male seed" that would bring redemption. The same happened at the time of Jesus.

2) The Golden Calf: Tired of waiting forty days for Moses, the people tell Aaron that they want another God, since they do not know where Moses is or when he will return. Aaron relents and builds a golden calf for them, which the people idolize and offer sacrifices to, being unfaithful to the Alliance. Moses comes down from the mountain and sees how the people dance under the golden calf. Moses, angry, throws the tables and breaks them. He destroys the calf and cremates it, forcing the people to drink the ashes. He commands the Levites, uncontaminated by the worship of the calf, to kill the unbelievers. Around three thousand people die.

Yes...
The priestly line that prevailed in Israel comes from the nucleus of priests who officiated in Jerusalem when the elimination of all local sanctuaries was decreed, leaving the temple of Jerusalem as the only sacred place. A very serious religious and economic conflict occurred since the rest of the priests, most of them Levites, were left without work and without the right to officiate. They were objects of public charity, like widows and orphans. The priests of Jerusalem, Zadokite and not Levitical, managed to demonstrate their descent through the line of Aaron.

So my question is, on what grounds do the priests that say that they come from the line of Aaron (the one that commanded the Golden Calf to be built and let the people worship it) consider themselves above the priests form the line of the Levites (the only ones uncontaminated by the worship of the calf)?

Thanks for reading, sorry if something is confusing or, now that I think about it, maybe this is too long, haha. But yeah, hope someone can answer me and I can learn more :)))

I thought Aaron was from the tribe of Levi. At least that is my understanding :) Thanks for sharing
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
2) The Golden Calf: Tired of waiting forty days for Moses, the people tell Aaron that they want another God, since they do not know where Moses is or when he will return. Aaron relents and builds a golden calf for them, which the people idolize and offer sacrifices to, being unfaithful to the Alliance. Moses comes down from the mountain and sees how the people dance under the golden calf. Moses, angry, throws the tables and breaks them. He destroys the calf and cremates it, forcing the people to drink the ashes. He commands the Levites, uncontaminated by the worship of the calf, to kill the unbelievers. Around three thousand people die.

@ghostofachance

What was the size of this golden calf? This golden calf measures around 3 inches due to the earrings.

How many people handed over their gold earrings? Boil the gold, and made a golden calf out of it?

Story time: I hope it's ok for me to use my imagination. It helps me learn when I add my imagination. Do you ever add your imagination too - to help learn and remember?

Here's my imagination story:
Consider a young woman who brought earrings her grandmother had given her, and imagine Aaron demanding the earrings from her. Her tears that streamed down her cheeks as she felt those earrings wrench from her grasp, as she screamed as she wanted to give these golden earrings to her unborn child, as she was 6 months pregnant, but not no more, those memories of her grandmother's golden earrings are now melted into a golden calf. Her cries onto YHWH as Moses has just arrived and lost it emotionally. As people dance, Moses loses it, and suddenly the tablet is broken.

Yet there's an unknown man in the distance who sings the blues and finger picks his guitar as he observes this full scene. Anyone with any blues songs that could describe this scene, please share? Or could you create a song that describes this scene? Please share.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Hello. Thank you for the advice. I have heard from many others that they read the Bible in this way. Also when I looked only on different websites where they guide you through the reading many also recommend this approach. Right now I'll keep on reading it in a chronological order, but if I find it too tedious at some point, I'll try your style. Thanks!

I think this the best way, because I think that is how it's intended to be read. In order. And then, once it's read, I hate to say it, read it again and look for patterns. Patterns aren't going to be clear in Genesis, for example, until it's read again after at least finishing the first 5.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
How many people handed over their gold earrings? Boil the gold, and made a golden calf out of it?

It's in the text, 3000 were slaughtered. And it's kind of brilliant that Aaron was inspired to ask for the jewlery. I would expect that helped identify the guilty party.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
You're welcome. There's a distinction between the children of Israel (Leviticus 1:2) and the people of Israel (Exodus 19:25-20:26).

I respectfully request that you check the Hebrew before making comments like this. It seems clear to me that the OP values the original language.
Exo 19:25​
וירד משה אל־העם ויאמר אלהם׃​
So Moses went down to the people, and spoke to them.​

The "people" here is unqualified. It does not say "people of Israel". There is no distinction being made between "people of Israel" and "children of Israel" here. I think I understand the motive, but, the OP should know you are adding words and interpretations undeclared.

Who are these "people" in Exo:19:25-20:26? It's a mix the children of Israel (Jacob) and a mixed multitude from Egypt. That is not making any sort of distinction without ADDING words and interpretations which are not actually in the text.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi @ghostofachance, welcome to RF.

1) The Babel Tower: in this story, humanity, who speaks the same language, decides to build a tower that reaches heaven and God to become famous and not disperse across the earth. God came down and saw it and scattered everyone throughout the land and made them speak in different languages and they did not understand each other. A generic interpretation indicates that this passage explains the origin of all languages and cultures, as a consequence of divine punishment. But, in Hebrew they do not say “those who spoke the same language”, but rather they use the expression “the whole earth had one lip”, which has nothing to do with the question of language, but rather of power. That is, everyone was subject to an emperor who used the tax system to oppress others and maintain power. The conquerors built towers as a symbol of power, whose top floor was destined for the divinity, who came down from heaven to speak with the emperor. In this way they tried to convince the people that divinity was on the side of the oppressor. Then, could it be interpreted that God came down and destroyed the tower, a symbol of union between the oppressor and divinity, to free the people from the “one lip"? So it is not a punishment but a liberation? Reading it today, can it be a reflection on globalization? Is it suitable for all people? What role are all institutions, including religion, play in this process?

If you read the story as originally written you can see that there isn't as much focus on the tower as what's usually supposed.

It seems that, according to the story, it's the city and the tower that God has a problem with:

" Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." 5 The LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which mortals had built. 6 And the LORD said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them".

I think one way of interpreting this is that it's civilization itself that God has a problem with.
 

Димитар

Прaвославие!
Tower od Babel
The moral of the story Tower of Babel is that we should never become full of pride.

Try reading this out:


 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone. I'm a new member and I don't know if this is the right place to post about this. I've just started reading the Bible and finished Genesis and Exodus. I'm reading it in Spanish, so sorry if places, concepts or names are translated wrong to English.

- Genesis

1) The Babel Tower: in this story, humanity, who speaks the same language, decides to build a tower that reaches heaven and God to become famous and not disperse across the earth. God came down and saw it and scattered everyone throughout the land and made them speak in different languages and they did not understand each other. A generic interpretation indicates that this passage explains the origin of all languages and cultures, as a consequence of divine punishment. But, in Hebrew they do not say “those who spoke the same language”, but rather they use the expression “the whole earth had one lip”, which has nothing to do with the question of language, but rather of power. That is, everyone was subject to an emperor who used the tax system to oppress others and maintain power. The conquerors built towers as a symbol of power, whose top floor was destined for the divinity, who came down from heaven to speak with the emperor. In this way they tried to convince the people that divinity was on the side of the oppressor. Then, could it be interpreted that God came down and destroyed the tower, a symbol of union between the oppressor and divinity, to free the people from the “one lip"? So it is not a punishment but a liberation? Reading it today, can it be a reflection on globalization? Is it suitable for all people? What role are all institutions, including religion, play in this process?

2) Joseph: After being sold by his brothers, Joseph interprets Pharaoh's dreams and is appointed prime minister, managing the grain impeccably in the face of the imminent famine that he himself predicts. His agrarian policy consisted of the following steps: First, all the money and purchasing power of the people who bought grain from Egypt were absorbed. Then all their belongings and livestock are demanded. Finally, having exhausted all of the above, Egypt is left with the peasants' lands and the people themselves become their properties, becoming serfs and slaves. This passage caught my attention because it could be said that thanks to the political and economic decisions of Joseph, who seeks the benefit of Pharaoh and, therefore, of the Egyptians, a system ends up being created where the same people are forced to sell themselves. to be able to eat, but then we move on to the Exodus, where slavery is criticized and denounced when it afflicts the Hebrews. But isn't Joseph partly responsible for creating a similar system?

- Exodus

1) 1 : 15-16 : Regarding the issue of the midwives, in Hebrew it is not specified exactly if they were Hebrew or if they were the midwives of the Hebrew women, that is, they were Egyptian. Does it seem like it's open to the reader's interpretation? Which is ambiguous on purpose. There are some who think they are Egyptian because Pharaoh wouldn't waste his time asking Jewish women to kill Jewish children. On the other hand, one can think that they were Hebrews and draw a good lesson from it for today: a tyrant who empowers women to murder his men. He wants to "feminize" the Hebrews. The first thing a tyrant wants to do is get rid of the figures that may be an opposing force to his system. What do you guys think?

2) The Golden Calf: Tired of waiting forty days for Moses, the people tell Aaron that they want another God, since they do not know where Moses is or when he will return. Aaron relents and builds a golden calf for them, which the people idolize and offer sacrifices to, being unfaithful to the Alliance. Moses comes down from the mountain and sees how the people dance under the golden calf. Moses, angry, throws the tables and breaks them. He destroys the calf and cremates it, forcing the people to drink the ashes. He commands the Levites, uncontaminated by the worship of the calf, to kill the unbelievers. Around three thousand people die.

The priestly line that prevailed in Israel comes from the nucleus of priests who officiated in Jerusalem when the elimination of all local sanctuaries was decreed, leaving the temple of Jerusalem as the only sacred place. A very serious religious and economic conflict occurred since the rest of the priests, most of them Levites, were left without work and without the right to officiate. They were objects of public charity, like widows and orphans. The priests of Jerusalem, Zadokite and not Levitical, managed to demonstrate their descent through the line of Aaron.

So my question is, on what grounds do the priests that say that they come from the line of Aaron (the one that commanded the Golden Calf to be built and let the people worship it) consider themselves above the priests form the line of the Levites (the only ones uncontaminated by the worship of the calf)?

Thanks for reading, sorry if something is confusing or, now that I think about it, maybe this is too long, haha. But yeah, hope someone can answer me and I can learn more :)))

@ghostofachance

What are the stories that are actually passed down? Where are the locations that these stories came from?

Egypt isn't the place that Exodus happened from; it is Indus Valley (India) where Exodus happened.

The flood was local and not global. Floods happen in Jalore.

I think past stories happened to humans from the Indus Valley, and somehow these stories changed over time as the Yadavas (Hebrews) left the Indus Valley and traveled to Canaan.

So picture humans experiencing a situation and telling their children, and stories change over time.

I think anyone can go to an inner I we all carry, allowing the inner I to teach us, as YHWH, Allah, and Brahman are the same God we all carry within us.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hello. Thank you for the advice. I have heard from many others that they read the Bible in this way. Also when I looked only on different websites where they guide you through the reading many also recommend this approach. Right now I'll keep on reading it in a chronological order, but if I find it too tedious at some point, I'll try your style. Thanks!
We find Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written...." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Thus, Jesus based his teachings by his logical reasoning on the OT.
Because the Bible has corresponding cross-reference verses and passages we can find the internal harmony among the Bible writers.
So, besides reading the Bible it helps to to research the Bible by topic or subject arrangement to get a clearer picture of what is being presented.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
........I think anyone can go to an inner I we all carry, allowing the inner I to teach us, as YHWH, Allah, and Brahman are the same God we all carry within us.
I find according to Jesus recorded words Not all are the same God that we carry within us.
Jesus instructed as to which God to worship at John 4:23-24.
YHWH was the God of Jesus.
KJV at Psalm 83:18 translates the Tetragrammaton into English as Jehovah, the God that Jesus worshiped.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
What people would be relevant to Exodus 19-20 if not the people of Israel?

The mixed multitude.


12:36
ויהוה נתן את־חן העם בעיני מצרים וישאלום וינצלו את־מצרים׃

And the Lord gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent them such things as they required. And they carried away the wealth of the Egyptians.


12:37
ויסעו בני־ישראל מרעמסס סכתה כשש־מאות אלף רגלי הגברים לבד מטף׃

And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot, who were men, beside children.


12:38
וגם־ערב רב עלה אתם וצאן ובקר מקנה כבד מאד׃
And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, and very many cattle.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
It's in the text, 3000 were slaughtered. And it's kind of brilliant that Aaron was inspired to ask for the jewlery. I would expect that helped identify the guilty party

@dybmh

Why couldn't people refuse Aaron? Aaron is only one of 3,000 people.

What if every single one of the 3,000 people turned Aaron down? More Hebrews will arrive in Canaan. What a shame these people couldn't say no; perhaps they need to learn to be assertive. Was their culture to blame for their extreme submissiveness?
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
The mixed multitude.


12:36
ויהוה נתן את־חן העם בעיני מצרים וישאלום וינצלו את־מצרים׃

And the Lord gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent them such things as they required. And they carried away the wealth of the Egyptians.


12:37
ויסעו בני־ישראל מרעמסס סכתה כשש־מאות אלף רגלי הגברים לבד מטף׃

And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot, who were men, beside children.


12:38
וגם־ערב רב עלה אתם וצאן ובקר מקנה כבד מאד׃
And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, and very many cattle.
So your argument is that the mixed multitude remained with Israel from the time of Succoth to the time that Israel crossed the Red Sea?

The Hebrew of Exodus 12 has also [גם] which relates to their animals. This contrasts with the separation of the mixed multitude in Nehemiah, which relates only to people.

וגם ערב רב עלה אתם וצאן ובקר מקנה כבד מאד
And a mixed multitude[ערב] went up also[גם] with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.
Exodus 12:38

ויהי כשמעם את התורה ויבדילו כל ערב מישראל
Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude[ערב].
Nehemiah 13:3

There's no mention of any Egyptians amongst Israel after the crossing of the Red Sea, so your argument that the people of Exodus 19:25 are someone other than the people of Israel fails.

And Israel saw that great work which YHWH did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared YHWH, and believed YHWH, and his servant Moses.
Exodus 14:31
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
So your argument is that the mixed multitude remained with Israel from the time of Succoth to the time that Israel crossed the Red Sea?

The Hebrew of Exodus 12 has also [גם] which relates to their animals. This contrasts with the separation of the mixed multitude in Nehemiah, which relates only to people.

וגם ערב רב עלה אתם וצאן ובקר מקנה כבד מאד
And a mixed multitude[ערב] went up also[גם] with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.
Exodus 12:38

ויהי כשמעם את התורה ויבדילו כל ערב מישראל
Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude[ערב].
Nehemiah 13:3

There's no mention of any Egyptians amongst Israel after the crossing of the Red Sea, so your argument that the people of Exodus 19:25 are someone other than the people of Israel fails.

And Israel saw that great work which YHWH did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared YHWH, and believed YHWH, and his servant Moses.
Exodus 14:31

Clearly you did not understand what I wrote. Let's try again.

There is no distinction between "people of Israel" and "children of Israel" in Exodos 19-20. That is not in the text in those chapters. I have no clue why you're asking me about crossing ther red sea. In the book of Numbers the mixed multitude is the focus of trouble. So it's known, at least, that they accompanied the Israelites from Egypt to Sinai and beyond in the wilderness.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
The first plague was of the water of the river becoming “blood.”Religious Forums We know though that water does not turn into blood. Thus we looked at the alternative meanings of the Hebrew word for “blood.” We found that the word also means “silent or still.”[ii] We accept this meaning because a river could possibly stop flowing. The plague therefore could be of the water of the river becoming still or stagnant. This could be the Hakra River which had become stagnant at that time.

Yeah water doesn't turn into blood. Yeah so what are the meanings of blood according to Hebrews who were Yadavas back when?

Wow so blood also means silent or still., because a river could possibly stop flowing., oh Hakra river water became stagnant., to the point of appearing red as blood...
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@dybmh

Why couldn't people refuse Aaron? Aaron is only one of 3,000 people.

What if every single one of the 3,000 people turned Aaron down? More Hebrews will arrive in Canaan. What a shame these people couldn't say no; perhaps they need to learn to be assertive. Was their culture to blame for their extreme submissiveness?

Apologies my friend, I missed this notification until now.

Question: "Why couldn't people refuse Aaron?"

My answer: When I read the story, it seems like the people wanted to contribute. I think they wanted to create the golden calf. If so, then they naturally would not refuse. They would volunteer.

Question: "What if every single one of the 3,000 people turned Aaron down?"

My answer: If none of the people contributed, then I don't think there would have been a golden calf. The story would go like this:

The people assemble onto Aaron and demand: " Where's Moses??? We need a leader! Let's make an idol!".​
Aaron replies, "Ok, ok, donate your earrings and I'll make you an idol."​
The people think about it; take off their jewelry; look at it their hands, then say: "Well.... nevermind."​
Aaron smiles, and thinks to himself: "crisis averted" :)

Note "assembled onto Aaron" is a literal translation, if I recall. They were a desperate mob. They would not have balked at giving up their jewelry.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah water doesn't turn into blood. Yeah so what are the meanings of blood according to Hebrews who were Yadavas back when?
Bob Briar (an archeologist) says that the Nile used to change different colors occasionally: black or red or green. This is sometimes still visible, although things have changed. I think this might correspond to the plagues of blood, frogs and darkness that are in the Exodus story of the plagues upon Egypt. It is at least a strong coincidence to me. The Nile flows South to North and in its natural state turns black with sediment during its flood period, although it has a dam now and behaves differently. It also used to turn green or red.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
Bob Briar (an archeologist) says that the Nile used to change different colors occasionally: black or red or green. This is sometimes still visible, although things have changed. I think this might correspond to the plagues of blood, frogs and darkness that are in the Exodus story of the plagues upon Egypt. It is at least a strong coincidence to me. The Nile flows South to North and in its natural state turns black with sediment during its flood period, although it has a dam now and behaves differently. It also used to turn green or red.
Can you provide the evidence that briar relied on? Is there any Egyptian evidence? Otherwise it may be a case of fitting history to the Bible.
 
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